Dungeon #26 Trial by Fire: Do the heroes, get experience for all three leaders, meaning 6 CT + 300 Gold on a first or second level encounter, and 12 CT + 600 on the last level? Or is it just once for the last leader?

Dungeons #19 Downward Spiral & #30 Stuck in the Middle: Do you reveal the red X areas to the players or just the special for the level. Are these kept secret from the players?

Dungeons #22 The Citadel & #28 Fire and Ice: Are the yellow areas in #22 and the blue icey area spaces in #28 revealed to the heroes or are they oblivious to where they begin or end? I know you read the special to the heroes at the start of the dungeon level, but do they know where these spaces are, or only if the special goes off on them?

Dungeon #21 King of the Mountain: Does it cost two movement to go from one elevation to the next same as tables (or other similiar elevation items)?

And finally, at the end of a Rumor Dungeon, do the heroes get the 200 Gold & 4 CT when killing the Rumor leader(s)?

Edit (3rd level gold should read 250 up there)...

Edit to first and last questions...

Dungeon #26 Trial by Fire: Do the heroes, get experience for all three leaders, meaning 6 CT + 300 Gold on a first or second level encounter, and 12 CT + 750 on the last level? Or is it just once for the last leader?

And finally, at the end of a Rumor Dungeon, do the heroes get the 250 Gold & 4 CT when killing the Rumor leader(s)?

Dungeon #26 Trial by Fire: Do the heroes, get experience for all three leaders, meaning 6 CT + 300 Gold on a first or second level encounter, and 12 CT + 750 on the last level? Or is it just once for the last leader?

Yes.

And finally, at the end of a Rumor Dungeon, do the heroes get the 250 Gold & 4 CT when killing the Rumor leader(s)?

Yes. Note that the reward has been errattaed to be for the last level of a dungeon, so the legendary areas give the extra on level 4, not level 3.

Dungeons #19 Downward Spiral & #30 Stuck in the Middle: Do you reveal the red X areas to the players or just the special for the level. Are these kept secret from the players?

The heroes see the card only, not the maps in the back of the book.

Dungeons #22 The Citadel & #28 Fire and Ice: Are the yellow areas in #22 and the blue icey area spaces in #28 revealed to the heroes or are they oblivious to where they begin or end? I know you read the special to the heroes at the start of the dungeon level, but do they know where these spaces are, or only if the special goes off on them?

Same as before. Read the card, but they don't get anything else. We found it was faster to have one of the heroes read the cardd to the rest while the OL set up the level (with help unles it was a level where the map had hidden stuff on it).

Dungeon #21 King of the Mountain: Does it cost two movement to go from one elevation to the next same as tables (or other similiar elevation items)?

Not sure without the full text of the card, but if it says they're elevated then all of the effects of elevated terrain take place.

James McMurray said:

Note that costing extra MP to enter is not an associated cost for elevated terrain in general . It just so happens that most elevated terrain so far has also come in the form of obstacles which cost 2MP to enter (Beds/Tables, Throne etc).
Therefore, barring particular special rules given for this area (of which there are none applicable that I recall), no , it does not cost 2MP to go from one elevation to the next.

Corbon said:

Well I'm not sure about Sea of Blood, but amongst the other expansions (barring the questbook) this dungeon is the only one where the question comes up. Since they refer to each level as a steps of a Giants staircase I thought it might apply, though it would be annoying to keep track off, I plan on elevating the terrain with paper model terrain I have been making for years, lifting each level up for an appropriate representation of height. So I guess atm it's more of a house call but currently there is no rule that applies the MP to enter elevated obstacles that applies also to elevated terrain. Though I guess we have to keep it in mind for possible future expansions, this might change lol. For now I'll let it ride as is, no MP on elevated "terrain" which applies to that dungeon only.

Shatteredragon said:

So there is evidence that elevation is not directly associated with the MP cost. There is no rules reason to associate the two effects.

Frankly, beds/tables and thrones are just awkward to move clamber on/around. Being higher is a minor benefit. Thematic reasoning associating the two effects is dubious at best.

Corbon said:

Really? Why? I associated elevated terrain with MP cost, but after reading it better, I have noticed that a hero must spend 2 MP to enter a space with a bed... I was playing it mistakenly.

gran_orco said:

You are asking why and then agreeing?

Assuming that elevation is the reason for costing 2MP to enter a bed/table/throne is the same as assuming Shadowcloak is the reason it costs 2MP to enter a tree space. In none of those cases is that what the rule says.

Bed and Table
It costs two movement points to enter a bed or table space.
rule #1
Figures in these spaces are elevated. An elevated figure attacking a non-elevated figure (i.e., attacking down) gains +1 range and +1 damage. A non-elevated figure attacking an elevated figure (i.e., attacking up) loses –1 range and –1 damage. Remember that melee attacks ignore rolled range. rule#2

Throne
It costs two movement points to enter a throne space.
rule #1
Throne spaces are elevated. See “Bed and Table.”
rule #2

Forecastle
Figures in a forecastle space are elevated. An elevated figure attacking a nonelevated figure (i.e., attacking down) gains +1 range and +1 damage. A non-elevated figure attacking an elevated figure (i.e., attacking up) suffers –1 range and –1 damage. Remember that melee attacks ignore rolled range.
only the one rule

Tree
It costs two movement points to enter a tree space.
rule #1
A figure in a tree space is considered to have the Shadowcloak ability. Large monsters only need to occupy one tree space to benefit from this ability.
rule #2 and #2a

In none of these cases is the rule about MP cost connected to the rule about elevation (or about shadowcloak).

Another example would be the water (deep/shallow) rules. One rule about entry costs etc, a second rule about not jumping. The two rules are independent.
Railing - one rule about movement across, one about attacking across. Two independent rules.
Corrupted spaces - a rule for spending fatigue, a rule for taking wounds...
The list goes on and on.

Elevated terrain does not have any inherent cost of entry. Each time such a space has an entry cost, it is a separate rule, and does not apply to spaces of a different type which are also elevated.

Corbon said:

I was going to edit the post to delete "why" -too late-. Your explanation was not needed, sorry But thank you anyway.

After reading the card for Dungeon #21 (King of the Mountain), it appears that the seperation of elevations may include the cost of movement to go up from one elevation level to another, exact text of the card is as follows.

"Some map sections are elevated with respect to others, as indicated on the map. Follow the elevation rules for beds and tables where sections of different elevation levels adjoin. "

I'm not sure if that is in reference to just the elevation, or to the same entire rules section for "beds and tables" though. It doesn't specify to use any other rules of the "beds and tables". Since it doesn't specify anything but "elevation" rules it would make sense that it didn't include "movement" rules, but at the same time it would make alot more sense.

Shatteredragon said:

Note that the Elevation rules for beds and tables come after the extra MP cost rules. You quite clearly quote "follow the elevation rules" not 'the whole rules' so I don't understand how you can confuse the two.
The reason for specifyin Bed and Tables is that was, at the time, the only place anywhere that elevation rules were spelled out .

The two are still separate.

Lol, the word "may" in the first paragraph should have been "doesn't", originally I had intended to say that, but after when I was reading the card, and noted exactly what you pointed out I decided to highlight the section relevant and edited the first paragraph of a line, I forgot to reread it to make sure I was sending the right message.

The only part up there that challenged the idea of it being limited to beds & tables "elevation" rules, was the last pharagraph, and was more a matter of opinion, since a "Giants stair" would contain "steps" that were easily the height of a table or bed, it would make sense that the movement would also be affected, but since at no point on the card did it hint that it was to be included with the "elevation" rules, I played it as one MP like I'm sure everyone else is, I agree that no MP seems to be what is indicated, I just don't see why it isn't included for something similiar. On the other hand, ships were designed for easy movements from different height levels, and in addition most for and aft sections were raised but also had "human" stairs to make the trip up to the next level without really breaking or interfering with stride. So it makes sense that they wouldn't be affected by similiar rulings as other elevated terrain. I suspect with the addition of any elevated rules that we're likely to see a larger outdoor expansion at some point in the future of Descent, but one never knows.

I'm agreeing that the card doesn't include MP cost, and seems to be designed that way, it just seems... an odd ruling considering it makes sense it would have the same restrictions, maybe for balance or something I'm not seeing lol.

I'm curious about dungeon level #26 Trial by Fire, can the named monsters on this level open the runelocked doors? I noticed that they are not set up as area doors, and the cards text reads:

There are three sections to this level, each with its own leader and minions. When a sections's leader is killed, all other monsters in that section die and the door to the next section (or to the portal, in the case of Firebane (the last named leader) unlocks and opens.

Also, does this mean that the named leaders can't open these runelocked doors? I don't see anything that says they can't, and since they are on the board they would have all legal movements and actions, except that these doors seem to have special condition rules on being opened.

Do I have to place all the named monsters as well as its spawn group when the level is revealed, or just when the heroes open the door to the next room? While the level has 3 leaders it seems kinda pointless to put down the monsters in the other areas, unless this is to give the Heroes tactical advantage, but the cards seem to support prior to the doors being opened placement, especially since they are refered to as sections rather than areas .

Shatteredragon said:

By RAW there's no reason the named leaders couldn't open these doors early if they wanted to. The special condition really just ensures the doors will be open when the heroes are ready to move through, since the quest does not deem fit to give out the actual keys.

I would note, however, that if the OL opens these doors early, he also creates the opportunity for the heroes to kill the other leaders more quickly than perhaps intended, which in turn will kill any other monsters left in the corresponding area that leader belongs to. In particular, the way I read it, if the OL were to rush everything into the first area, then all the heroes would need to do it kill the first section leader and EVERYTHING else dies. Named monsters are still monsters, subject to all rules concerning monsters except as provided by more specific rules about named monsters. So even the other leaders would be geeked if they were in section 1 when the section 1 leader died, potentially causing a chain reaction that could clear the entire dungeon with just one kill.