I wanted to ask how other TOi players like the auto spotting feature of TOI, which is basically, an unit in unobstructed line of sight of an enemy unit may be fired on, regardless of what terrain they are in. My opinion is biased somewhat by my having played PanzerBlitz back in the old days, so I have always played with a general spotting rule that a unit in woods, bldg, or hedgerow hex is unspotted, and cannot be fired upon unless it move, fires, or an enemy unit moves adjacent to it or is already adjacent to it. Ive even played around with assigning "profile" numbers to each type of unit that a die roll is then used to determine probability of spoting unit from a distance. So for example, a tank would have a larger profile or silouette than would a small AT gun, or infantry would.

the concealed markers provide the effect you are talking about

Aussie_Digger said:

Yes, I know that some scenarios allow a few units to set up in positions with concealed markers. But this is only temporary. And all the other units still are seen no matter what terrain they are in.Units always being seen no matter what range, by the opposing players units, just by establising a line of sight is just too simple for me I guess, and seems unrealistic.

Using a new spotting rule, would give AT guns more advantages, and give the defending side some advantage for being concealed(unspotted), in woods/bldg/hedge terrain at the start of each turn.

"Spotting" is basically applying the concealment rule to all units in woods/bdlg/hedgerow hexes at the start of each new turn. If a scenario allows for concealment markers, this could be amended to allow set up at start of game in hexes adjacent to enemy units. They will in effect, be considered camoflaged, thus an exception to the normal spotting rule.

At the start of a turn, no units have yet been given any actions, so units in woods,bldg, or hedgerow hexes which have an opposing unit already adjacent to them are spotted. Other units in woods/bldg/hedgerow hexes, which are not adjacent to any enemy unit, start the turn as unspotted. Once a unit is given an action where it moves or fires, while in LOS of enemy units, it becomes spotted, for the remainder of that turn until both sides have used up all their actions. This process is then repeated at the beginning of the next turn.

Units which are determined at the beginning of the turn as spotted, will be marked with a spotted marker ( white 1pt. markers work) placed in that hex. All other units will be considered as unspotted,(no markers). When initiative is determined, the player moving first, will not be able to fire at any enemy units unspotted until at least one of his units moves adjacent to them, or they opportunity fire. Place a spotted marker in the hex with the unit that opportunity fires, after the attack is resolved. That unit is now spotted for the remainder of the current turn. A unit must remain adjacent to an enemy unit for it to be spotted and fired upon by other units. You cannot move a unit adjacent to an enemy unit, then move away, and then fire at the enemy unit, because it becomes unspotted again. You can only fire at the unit in your action phase with a unit which remains in a hex adjacent, or with other units that have line of sight and now can "see" the enemy unit spotted by the adjacent spotting unit.

Trucks cannot spot enemy units. Enemy combat units that move adjacent to a friendly truck cause the truck to be automatically destroyed, or the truck can be captured and moved, or loaded in that same action.

It could be nice for a more realistic and complicated game, but I don't see it working in ToI.

Default concealment every turn gives way too much advantage to defence, especially with the very "generous" op-fire ToI already has. The whole game would turn into a waiting-contest to see who makes the first move while the dead-line comes closer. The basic rules work just fine as they are now, problems with specific scenario's should be fixed within the (special) rules of that specific scenario, not by changing the entire game. (IMHO of course).

The only basic rule that somewhat bothers me, is how they handle AT-Guns ... but that a different story.

Latro said:

Agreed. I do feel certain terrain rules and/or op-cards should be changed somewhat, but overall (scenario special) rules should work just fine.

You do have the camuflage op-card, which allows a concealed unit to stay concealed longer. However i personaly would have tweaked it. Cuz it is a card which revards 'bad die roles', which I personaly hate. A high roll should allways be positiv, regardless, period. But thats only my opinion.

Regarding the AT gun: I see no reason why AT guns (or other tanks for that matter, ie the STUG) may be given a concealed token. Maybe not default in every scenario as hidding tanks/AT guns is harder than hiding infanteri, but it should be allowed through a op-card. That would give the AT guns an gigantic benefit as they are now garanteed a shot.

The LOS rules in TOI are the default setting that tells us that both sides have really good intelligence or have been facing off against each other for a while, so that the location of all the units are well known. The movement or firing that you talk about to reveal units has already taken place, so we are just picking up the action in the middle of the situation. Concealment markers or scenario specific rules can be used to describe other situations. And to apply a renewed concealment at the beginning of each new set of actions? Seems to contradict our understanding of space/time reality.

Grand Stone said:

That's actually a very nice idea! AT guns were often set-up in ambush. Another hidden counter would have to be placed on the squad, though, because otherwise you still wouldn't get to fire the AT gun against a competent opponent.

I think I agree with these posts. The TOI system is pretty good as is, and too much concealment might introduce some unintentional problems, so just a little tweaking for AT guns, perhaps, either with op cards, and changing the concussion effect of Tanks firing at bunkers, and infantry in buildings. And a combined fire rule of limiting the number of units participating to the no. of actions per action phase allowed by scenario. or combined fire linked to op card.