the FAQ states the following special abilities that require you to spend surges are designed to stack. so if you have an ability such as "surge: +1 damage and pierce 1 and you pay 3 surges, you gain +3 damage and pierce 3.

cone of fire has the following abilities

breath

surge: +1 damage

surge surge: burn

can four surges be spent to add 2 burn tokens to a single attack?

our group was under the impression that this could not be done as burn is not a ranked ability like pierce, aura, etc ... and that for that reason it does not stack.

I agree - Burn is not a ranked ability, so getting Burn twice doesn't help you. However, the Dragon's Breath (silver-level version of that weapon) has Burn automatically and lets you spend 2 surges for "+1 burn token" (or something like that), which would allow you to inflict multiple burn tokens on one attack.

That's all kind of academic, though, because a Burn token is basically never worth as much as the 2 damage you could get instead. On average, I don't think it's even worth one damage, because it's not like you're going to let the monster live very long in any case. I wouldn't even consider spending surges on burn unless the target's armor is higher than my total damage.

many thanks for the quick response and answering my question.

there is no reason why multiple burn tokens can not be placed upon a monster from a single attack, there is a feat after all that places three on a monster after a sucsesful attack.

though as antistone said it is better to deal the damage rather than add the burn in most cases. if it were a named monster i would probably add the burn tokens on an attack that has little to no chance of penetrating armor because the wounds from burn ignore such on future rounds, and they most likely will be around to have to roll for the tokens.

yes it is fairly easy to remove burn before dealing damage, however, just is the case with frost as well and as an overlord i use them as often as possible, especially on tanks.

Dwome said:

i know. the question was for cone of fire specifically as other weapons state "+1 burn token" instead of just the keyword "burn"

rules and FAQ have been fairly clear that if it is a surge expense to get the effect it can be done as many times as you have surges to pull off.

Dwome said:

Yes, and you can spend a surge for +1 damage as many times as you want. But the Burn ability does not have ranks, and specifically adds 1 burn token per attack. There are no rules for gaining the effects of a named special ability multiple times if it does not have ranks, so while you can technically spend the surges to get Burn twice, the second copy doesn't produce any extra effect.

Similarly, you gain no additional benefit from a second thing that gives you Breath , Sweep , Leap , Ironskin , Dark Prayer , Bash , Reach , Knockback , etc. (Though I think they added ranks to Reach in extended campaigns only.)

Something that specifically adds more burn tokens (rather than just giving you the "Burn" ability a second time) is different, of course. Similarly, something that specifically adds more distance to your Knockback.

as per the description in the rule book: If an attack by a monster or weapon with the Burn ability inflicts at least 1 damage on the target (before applying the effects of armor), the target catches fire. After applying any wounds that result from the attack, place a burn token next to the affected figure. A figure can have more than one burn token at a time.

tell me then how you would think that you could not add more tokens by spending surges with this weapon? it is not a single use effect like the others you mentioned but an effect that inherently stacks like web and bleed, therefore since there is nothing specificaly stating you cannot apply this effect more than once it is a valid interpretation that one may.

Read that carefully. A figure can accumulate more than one burn token (across multiple attacks), but Burn causes you to place A (singular) token at the end of each attack. Same with Web, Bleed, etc. The only status effect that can inflict more than one per attack is Poison, and that still doesn't have ranks, it just always adds 1 per wound.

If you were correct that getting Burn twice inherently adds 2 tokens per attack, there's no reason for the different wording on Dragon's Breath. Your interpretation requires us to suppose the existence of an extra rule that isn't documented anywhere AND assume that FFG uses different wording on identical effects for no reason. Sorry, but as far as I can tell, you don't have any sort of case at all.

The only case one could have is the fact that the Cone of Fire is -according to a quick analysis- the only item that gives such an ability via surges. All other comparable items have the ability per default and add further tokens by spending surges.

Whether the Cone of Fire is a misprint or just another case of sloppy wording/ruling or is intentionally designed completely different than other comparable items - who knows?

the gold weapon FLAME STRIKE grants burn as a given and for 2 surges you may apply another burn token. how can the surge use for CONE OF FIRE be any different?

Dwome said:

OK, now you're just trolling. That's exactly the same as the Dragon's Breath example that I already discussed in depth.

perhaps you would link to that discussion as my search for it turns up no relevant posts.

The wording on the cards supports Anistole, the difference is:

Cone of Fire: 2 surges gains burn (same as a monster with the burn ability, limited to one per round wounds are caused)

Dragon's Breath: 2 surges +1 burn token (there's the difference, with this one you can apply additional burn tokens, unlike the other which just gives the ability burn, the difference is in the plus symbol or lack of

Flame Strike: 2 surges +1 burn token (same as Dragons Breath, but not Cone of Fire)

There are no other cards with this ability, Cone of Fire being a copper would make sense being limited compared to it's silver and gold counterparts.

I do have a question here though, is that +1 burn token per monster in the targeted area, or +1 burn token that can be placed on one monster with more surges needing to be spent for extra ones for other monsters?

Shatteredragon said:

I would say it's +1 burn token on each figure hit by the attack. Damage is applied separately to each figure, so it makes sense that these tokens would follow suit.

Steve-O said:

Thanks, that's how I allowed it to play, and it does make sense, just wanted to be sure.

Dwome said:

Lets give you the benefit of the doubt and call that a moment of intense peroxide concentration (apologies to the naturals out there), rather than trolling.
Try this very thread , replies #1, and #8. Reply #6 (and #8) covers why it makes a difference.

No more benefit of the doubt.