Hidden Chambers (1)
[stark Location]
King's Landing.
No attachments.
If it is Winter, reduce the cost to bring your cards out of Shadows by 1. If it is Summer, return Hidden Chambers to your hand

I'm using House Stark and the City of Shadows agenda.

I control three Hidden Chambers in play and it is winter this round. How much should I pay when Tyrion Lannister(KL) comes out of shadow?

Ser Mandon Moore (s2) (3)
[Neutral Character]
Knight. Kingsguard.
No attachments except Weapon.
Challenges: Bring Ser Mandon Moore out of Shadows and into play by paying the rest of his gold cost.
Response: After you win a challenge in which Ser Mandon Moore participated as the defender, choose and kill a participating character.

Can I use the Hidden Chambers to reduce the cost of Ser Mandon Moore at the beginning of each phase except the challenge phase?

Can I use the Hidden Chambers to reduce the cost of Ser Mandon Moore at the beginning of the challenge phase?

Can I use the Hidden Chambers to reduce the cost of Ser Mandon Moore in the challenge phase?

Great THX!

Tiny White 2 said:

Out of curiosity, what is the confusion behind this question? The situation and the math seem pretty straightforward?

Tiny White 2 said:

Your answer is prefect, Thanks again!

ktom said:

Why does Hidden Chambers only apply to bringing cards out of the Shadows at the beginning of the phase? Isn't it a constant effect? Are you saying that "rest of his gold cost" equates to "printed non-S" gold cost?

If Moore's ability read:

"Challenges: Bring Ser Mandon Moore out of Shadows and into play by paying the rest of his gold cost (reduce this cost by 1, if it is Winter)."

Would the cost reduction not work because you have already been told to pay "the rest of his gold cost"?

FATMOUSE said:

Going back to the CCG, imagine that I have the Baratheon Vale Pact in play. It says that all neutral House Arryn cards I own in play or in my hand gain the Baratheon affiliation. That would include an event card like Fled to the Vale, right? So I have an event, with the Baratheon House affiliation that can be played during the Marshaling phase.

So I could use Seat of Power to reduce the cost of that event, right? Seat of Power does not specify "gold cost," it simply says to reduce the cost of the next Baratheon card I "play" by 3. In my example, the event is a Baratheon card and I am playing it. So why wouldn't Seat of Power apply?

It doesn't apply because by saying you reduce the cost to "play" the card, it applies to the action of playing a card. "Playing" an event is considered a separate game mechanic (it is defined separately from playing other card types in the FAQ) and Seat of Power would need to specify that it worked on the separate game mechanic in order to be applicable to reducing the cost of an event that was "played" from your hand.

So why did I go through with that hypothetical? Because Hidden Chambers and Moore's ability create pretty much the same situation. Since Hidden Chambers does not specify that it reduces the cost to bring cards out of Shadows by any and all means, it only applies to the normal way that cards are brought out of Shadows - one-by-one at the beginning of each phase. When Moore brings himself out of Shadows with his own ability for a player action during the Challenge phase, it is his ability bringing him out of Shadows, not the game mechanic for bringing cards out of Shadows. Since Hidden Chambers does not specify that it lowers the cost of card effects that bring cards out of Shadows, it cannot be applied.

Look at it this way: suppose I had an location that said "Any Phase: Pay 3 gold to choose a card in Shadows. Bring that card out of Shadows." Would Hidden Chambers reduce the cost on that? No, because it doesn't specify that it reduced the cost of card effects that bring cards out of Shadows. Well, Moore essentially says "Challenges: pay 2 gold to bring this card out of Shadows." Hidden Chambers doesn't apply to that any more than it applies to my hypothetical location.

FATMOUSE said:

Let's say you have your version of Moore, but instead of triggering his ability, you decide to bring him out of Shadows at the beginning of the challenge phase in the normal way. It's Winter. Does the reduction on his card ability kick in? No, because it only applies to using the card effect, not to absolutely any method for bringing Moore out of Shadows during the Challenge phase. Hidden Chambers is the same thing - applying only to the normal method of bringing cards out of Shadows - not to absolutely every card effect that could result in a card coming out of Shadows.

ktom said:

Just to clarify, if Moore had a separate constant effect from his current ability that read, "If it is Winter, reduce to the cost to bring Ser Mandon Moore out of the Shadows by 1," that ability would only apply to bring him out of the Shadows the normal way and not to his triggered effect. That's what you're saying, right?

ktom said:

I understand that Hidden Chambers wouldn't reduce to the cost to trigger effects, but isn't "the rest of his gold cost" contingent on the value of his non-S cost, which is reduced by Hidden Chambers? I'm saying Hidden Chambers modifies the non-S cost**, which is what Moore's ability refers to. It's interaction with Moore's ability is indirect. Had Moore's ability said, "by paying two gold," I would agree that Hidden Chambers does not reduce the cost.

Also, is Moore's ability one of the rare instances where the "Do X to do Y" formula for a cost is not followed? That is, it's still a cost, right?

**I say that because the Shadows Rules read:

"At the beginning of the any phase, a card that is in Shadows can come out of Shadows and into play at the discretion of the player controlling the card. Each player has the option of bringing one card out of his or her Shadows area each phase. When a card is brought out of Shadows in this manner, the non-Shadows portion of its gold cost (the number printed after the “s” in the card’s cost), as well as any applicable gold penalties, is paid, or the card cannot come out of Shadows."

Since players must pay the non-S cost, according to the rules, the only way to reduce that cost is by reducing the non-S cost. If Hidden chambers does not reduce the non-S cost then players would still have to pay the full printed value of non-S cost (plus any gold penalties) when bringing a card out of Shadows.

FATMOUSE said:

FATMOUSE said:

Same thing with Hidden Chambers. It's reduction to the "remainder of the cost" only applies when you actually go to initiate the player action that brings something out of Shadows, not to all general cost checks on the card. That's just how cost reduction works

FATMOUSE said:

FATMOUSE said:

Essentially, Hidden Chambers doesn't apply to card effects that bring cards out of Shadows, even if it refers to the "remaining cost," for the same reason the OOH gold penalty does not apply to bringing cards out of Shadows the "normal" way. It is an inapplicable modifier at the time the cost is determined (ie, initiation of the effect/action).

Ok, that makes sense. As always, I appreciate your patience.

ktom said:

I would like to clarify one point in this. You said that OOH gold penalties do NOT apply when bringing a card out of shadows, correct? In the Shadow rules, it states that when bringing a card out of shadows, you must pay the remainder of its gold cost, "as well as any applicable gold penalties." If there is no OOH penalty, what qualifies as an applicable penalty? Since I am new, I have not seen every card yet, so I have not encountered any penalties other than OOH that could possibly apply...

MrDudeguy said:

The City of Shadows agenda allows you to ignore the house restriction on Shadow cards but requires you to pay one additional gold when bringing an out-of-house Shadow card out of Shadows.