Well, novels are novels. Marines mounting multilasers on tamed Tyranids, 16-year old Celestians acting as elite bodyguards, and Battle Sisters playing cards and getting drunk because it's fun. Part of why, personally, I deem licensee products not as "reliable" as studio material. Apart from some novels actively contradicting each other.

In the end, everyone will have to draw the conclusions for himself. Given the ambiguity of the sources and GW's reluctance to officially take a stance, it comes down largely to a question of personal preferences. Some players will want Marines to be "well equipped" popular superhero studs, others prefer the abhuman indoctrinated machine of war approach. It depends on how gritty and grimdark you want the setting to be.

Lynata said:

Technically, Black Library isn't a licensee, it's a subsidiary of Games Workshop.

Yes, novels are novels, and their primary purpose is telling a story... but similar can be said of the codices: their primary purpose is to encourage people to buy toy soldiers, to put it crudely. RPG material exists in its own context distinct from either of those, and neither has to present a story in its own right (adventures come closest, but instead provide the framework of a story yet to be told) nor are they there primarily to sell something else. A Codex is supplementary to the miniatures range it exists to support, while an RPG book is its own product.

I'm curious to know how you regard the work of someone who has written both codices and novels (and, in a couple of cases, RPG books), such as Gav Thorpe, Graham McNeill, Andy Chambers, Andy Hoare or Anthony Reynolds. Do you arbitrarily define their codices/rulebooks to take precedence over anything else they do, regardless of context or content?

Personally, I'd trust the interpretations of any of those individuals I've named above - people who've been working with the setting for many, many years and who have defined so much of it - in any context, over the design studio's current crop of writers (with the possible exception of Phil Kelly, as the material in the current Dark Eldar codex is excellent).

The difference between novels and codices is that the codices are regarded as source material whereas the novels are regardes as interpretations. The interview you yourself have linked said as much. The RPG material is similarly affected by not being as "close" to GW. There can only be one owner of the franchise who can rightfully determine how the setting develops, and that is the studio. Everyone else is free to add to it, but I have chosen to remain sceptical when it comes to non-studio material trying to retcon things, which makes the setting far more orderly for me, because then I know what to turn to in case a contradiction turns up.

And the novels do contradict themselves, as does this RPG - and no, I'm not even referring to what you think is an "evolution", I also mean details such as what exactly nephium is supposed to be now.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Not at all. I have said in the past that I deem the stories of those people as having a greater value when it comes to the setting, simply because they know best what the setting they create/d should look like - so we are actually on the same side on this for once. Gav Thorpe's "Know Thine Enemy", for example, remains what I deem a recommendable example of Space Marine behavior and personality. Marine roleplayers should read it.

That said, as this RPG isn't exclusively written by these writers (I presume their influence is fairly small compared to the FFG staff, though this may differ from book to book), I will not give the entire franchise a blank stamp of approval, similarly to how I won't do the same for the Black Library just because some of them wrote books for it. Just in case you wanted to prepare an argument there.

We're on the verge of going off-topic here, though. You have your opinion about the status of the novels and the RPG (or the supposed non-existence of a "hierarchy" in background sources), and I have mine. No point in debating that, as we won't be able to sway either of us.

Lynata said:

Plugs and/or catheters? Just because 21st Century Astronoauts still wear diapers doesn't mean we can't figure out a better system in the future. How would you reclaim feces, with a vaccume tube? I'd imagine it would be more like a stomach tube in reverse in order to keep the mess and contamination to a minimum.

Lynata said:

How does letting a Marine have gentitals or sexual desires make him a Mary-Sue? How can you say on the one hand that it's unnecesary for them because all they do is fight, but at the same time say it's a disadvantage? I'm having trouble understanding how the absence of sexual desires or the ability to relate to humans completely would be a real disadvantage, anymoresoe than any other character in the Imperium might have.

I don't disagree that the indoctrination and super powers a Marine would have would most likely change their point of view, but that is the keystone of the character conflict, not whether or not they have testicles and want to use them.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

+1 ; also, isn't the point of the RPG for the players and GM to create and tell a good story?

Charmander said:

Don't read too much into it. Of course having a **** or not or wanting to use it or not isn't the one deciding factor. It is a facet, just as much as the personality is, and the ability (or inability) to socially interact with people outside the Astartes. I think it makes them less human, so I believe it would fit.

And the disadvantage was about defining character traits from the perspective of the reader, not in-universe. Because it makes them, as I said, less human - but unlike their other abhuman traits (armour-ribs, acid spit, etc) this is one where you'll have the players go: "aww, poor guy", or "man, that's grimdark" instead of "wow, badass!" Just like the monastic lifestyle and the indoctrination.

Personally, I deem this balance important. In my book, it's what distinguishes the gritty abhuman supersoldier who had to sacrifice his humanity from the over-the-top comic hero who hangs around banging chicks when he's not tossing tanks through the air. But we all have our own levels of preference.

And yes, I believe it would work via plugs. Plugs that go into a connector socket.
Negates a lot of potential risks, too. Chaos can still get him, but at least it won't take just a single Daemonette dancing around naked to get a Marine into the mood for some corruption points. Because why rely on indoctrination alone when you can be double-safe thanks to surgery or chemical inhibitors? This kind of equipment is unnecessary for a Marine, so it can go. It's that simple.

It's just my interpretation, though. As I said, we all have to make our own judgement here.

Man, we so need a forum for people who actually like Space Marines.

You are gonna have to work seriously hard to convince people that a man not having a **** makes them cooler.

For that matter, what flaw equivalent to 'has had their **** chopped off' would Mr. Lynata be willing to accept for the space nuns?

That is the very definiton of emascualation! It is almost as if you wanted to put people off Space Marines!

To me, the personality changes that come with the lifestyle and 'superpowers' and the oaths that they take are where it's at. To me a character that walks the straight and narrow and gives up his humanity knowing that he's doing it is more compelling than say 'Data' from Star Trek who doesn't even know what he's missing.

As for connector sockets, why even use the urethra, why not just bypass the whole thing and just plug into the kidneys or straight into the bladder with a plug? If you simply bypass the ***** and still use the urethra, then they have to sit down when not in their armor and you end up with a leaky system, much like draining an oil pan. Use the plug when you need to, and use natural methods when you don't.

Regarding Chaos temptations- if your marine is swayed by a single dancing Daemonette with a sycthe arm and torn up face is enough to cause your super soldier to fall to chaos you've just bypassed a lot more than a single system of defense here. And given that Slaanesh is all about pleasure through all means, not just sex, your perfect warrior marine with no junk can still be swayed by promises of glory or a careful ego stroking. Again though, I think it's well within the realm of possibility that some of the chapters would see this and other reasons as a good reason to start chopping, I'm just saying that given the diversity within chapters, I'd think that something like this would also be inconsistently regulated, even if it was in the codex, and creates a richer pool of parts to create characters from.

AluminiumWolf said:

Okay, laughing at a bad joke aside, there is a point there- why would the sisters maintain any measure of femininity- say hair or breasts, if they were truly dedicated to their order and/or cause? Hair gives enemies something to pull and makes it harder to fit into helmets. Breasts make it so you require specialized, custom armor, and/or can cause physical discomfort when engaging in physically strenuous activity (running, leaping, etc.). Now I also see that marines are an order of magnitude more modified than a sister and the whole 'balance' of a character wouldn't come into play in the same way, but it still bears a question, especially if you think a penectomy is going to make a better soldier. And I don't know the nature of the Orders Militant and whether or not it values feminin traits.

And here is one last though- the Primarch's were created to not just be perfect warriors, but perfect generals, and perfect statesmen. They were created to spread the Imperium and they were to lead humanity, right? So was the Emperor's view that the perfect man was one sans nuts? I'm guessing no, especially if you believe the stories that the Emperor had lots of kids.

AluminiumWolf said:

Is regular corporeal mortification, a life of deprivation and the renunciation of life's amenities not enough? Or are you implying that, all of a sudden, Sisters are as awesome as the Marines? As I said - balance.

You could also argue that the Sisters "need" their breasts as a symbolic adherence to the Decree Passive. And if you go back even further in time, you'd have Goge Vandire just enjoying the sight of boobies. Space Marine penises quite simply have no such application (unless you want to suggest something) and - unlike female breasts - are an unnecessary risk to lead a man's thoughts astray. Aside from the aforementioned armour theories.

But have it your way! As I said, personal preferences. I've already stated that we will all have to decide for ourselves here, so why the turmoil?

Also, why would you need another forum? Astartes fans are clearly in the majority here.

Lynata said:

Right, but you could easily interpret that the Emperor and Primarchs liked having their genetials intact and operational, so why would they make their kids remove them? I don't think Horus led a rebellion against his dad because of his lust for women, so I think the 'leading man's thoughs astray' argument is kind of secondary.

But as Fenris has pointed out, there are chemical issues and consequences with removing the biggest testosterone supply in the male body by chopping off their testicles. It's far more likely they'd suppress the desires using other chemicals or the like. I could see a 'tradition' argument, but the problem is the traditions don't suggest this in the least, it's just hypothesis when people say 'they don't use them so why keep them.'

And again, self-imposed chastity is more of a mark of strength of will then chemically imposed chastity, just the same as it would be for Sisters.

There's always a cliterectomy. But I don't think genital mutilation occurs on any sort of formal scale in the Adeptus Sororitas or Astartes.

We need to be looking at the battle nuns being so hopped up on hypertestosterone that they all have prominent adams apples and wear full beards, and even that doesn't come close to being as profoundly unhip as a man with no ****.

>>>Is regular corporeal mortification, a life of deprivation and the renunciation of life's amenities not enough?<<<

Well no, because those are all pretty cool. Being covered in a network of bitching self inflicted scars is awesome. Not having a **** is just, uncool. There is nothing cool about a man with no *****

.

Good flaws are things like Eldar arrogance and, well, their **** being way tormented - things that actually make them more attractive to their fans.

Good flaws for Space Marines are things like the superpatriotic xenophobia (hating everyone different from yourself is going to appeal to a lot of Marine fen) or having a barely contained God Complex.

In closing, if you wanted to destory Games Workshop, and lets face it a lot of people do, cutting the **** off Space Marines would be a good start.

Fenrisnorth said:

Other than picture-based evidence in Bloodquest (which is canon), where the Blood Angels are shown without genitals, as Black Carapace covers that entire area.

Actually look at all sources of canon before making blanket statements that can be proven wrong with evidence, thanks

I know epigenetics change simply gene expression. But it is important in showing that changes to genes during a lifetime can be inherited and surely the implants would effect the gene expression of other genes considering the whole marine gets significantly biologically restructered. Very little of the body would be wholly unchanged after the process of becoming a marine. Some form of gene therapy could be part of the implantation process or be something that some of the implanted organs themselves do. And so even if the genes in the organs themselves weren't transferred the changed gene expressions which could be quite radically different could be inheritied with either gain of muscular strength etc for the child or possible mutation.

It's worth pointing out that changing a gene switch at different times can do different things, with a single gene being involved in more than one process depending on different stages of development. So the gene switches triggered by a marines implants could if inherited in that switched state cause all manner of birth defects. That too would be suffient for the Imperium to want to prevent Marine procreation, as mutants are abhored and feared.

Thanks for the Sympathy on CFS. I've had it more than half my life and i live on a disability pension because of it. Currently it's thought to be caused by a retrovirus piggybacking on other common viral infections and that this retrovirus causes temporary immune gene switches to get stuck switched on/off rather than to switch back to their ordinary dormant state once the virus is defeated.

A marines immune system would have to be radically altered during implantation. Otherwise they'd be like our current transplant recipiants on a constant cocktail of immune-supression drugs to prevent the organs being rejected as foreign objects and attacked by the immune system. Whatever process is used for this could have many interesting effects. Perhaps the organs replace the marines immune system with their own?

Now you go through the various unlikely events involved in a virus changing inherited dna.. yet we know that this does happen and that it has been a key part of human evolution so the rarity may not have been an acceptable risk for the emperor when designing the marines because if his acts did preserve humanity long enough and marines were often reproducing then it would happen eventually.

Your bringing up potency isn't so simple cause surely Progenoid Glands which are harvested upon a marines death and used to create new marines implanted organs would be filled with all manner of stem cells, maybe rather like embryonic ones. We already have a case where a girls new liver's stem cells (aren't liver stem cells unipotent and only suppossed to make liver cells?) colonised and changed her bone marrow and hence her blood type which does suggest more to stem cells than is currently understood and there's work underway now to find artificial ways to turn adult stem cells into the equivalent of embryonic ones so it's not outside the realm of possibility that such events may rarely occur naturally. In fact Marines incredible healling may be a development of such regenerative medicine and marines could have a system constantly producing it's own supply of embryonic stem cells for healling injuries and fighting aging. Which as a trade off for centuries of active healthy lifespan and the capacity to recover swiftly from the most grievous of injuries could dramatically increase the risk of a marine passing on some of the geneseed dna especially after multiple centuries of life.

Certainly a vasectomy is one of many options for rendering a marine infertile. We don't know that castration would disrupt their testosterone levels etc as that function may be taken up instead by some other implanted organ. Who knows what biological compromises might be required to create a marine and what precautions the imperium would have to go through to ensure the process worked, to safeguard the technology and to keep the imperium as mutant-free as possible.

The mention of social reasons is also a good one. The Emperor may have intended to keep the marines as seperate from humanity as possible. Romances and other relationships, even friendships, outside the chapter perhaps considered a weakness to the marines ability to carry out their duty. Even if not the emperors intent many marine chapters certainly to have policies along those lines, while others try and live with, and in, their homeworlds populace which has the double-edged consequence of keeping them more connected to the people they must defend while risking the kind of distractions that close ties to non-marines could produce.

Removal of sex-drive would not solve this problem completely anyway, for humans feel love as well as lust. Unless they have oxytocin-inhibiters in their systems marines would still be physically capable of the emotion of love in some form. Rituals and chapter life would be designed to focus those emotions in the 'right' directions, love of the emperor, the Primarch/s, the Chapter, duty, the marines wargear and away from anything that would be believed to be interfering in their duty like falling in love with imperial citizens, the chapters many servents or other battle-brothers (though the Sacred Band of Thebes showed an army of Gay Lovers can be a potent fighting force http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes) or worse, could lead them to fall to the fell powers.

Mental techniques designed to reduce the chance of turning to chaos would include preventing too much enjoyment of killing and strong repression of sexual and romantic desires. Of course chaos being on all extremes makes things awfully difficult for developing a marines training.

Of course different chapters would definately deal with these things differently, as even the geneseed of some has changed. the psycho-surgery of the pre-heresy World Eaters for example, those guys sure would have likely cut out or rewired the sexual and romantic parts of the brain. The Iron Hands already think the flesh is weak and best replaced, something as organic as sex would probably be pretty solidly rejected even if other chapters were ok with it and i doubt they'd keep any organ they saw as superfluous.

It's even possible that even if marines were designed to be infertile and non-sexual those systems designed for that could have degraded! Space Wolves could have dropped gelding their marines early for example or the wolf dna in them which leads to the Wulfen may have overcome any biological sterilisation and removal of sex drive.

The Imperial Fists masochism may involve a re-focused sex drive (and some readers have suggested a love/hate repressed-homosexuality romantic subtext in Ian Watsons Space Marine novel). Perhaps some of the greco-roman inspired chapters like the Ultramarines might slowly be becoming a little more like their inspiration with Veterans forming close bonds with Scouts or even a company or whole chapter forming along the lines of the sacred band of thebes.

How a chapter with marines intact and fertile which lived within human society as some of the chapters do would keep their marines from straying from their duties or would act towards a marine who did so stray would be interesting. Perhaps they'd incorporate such into their culture! With Marines by tradition having wives and their children being first to be selected for trials to determine suitability for candidacy to become marines.. and then there's an extra level of tension in a chapter and the dangers of nepotism!

As for Slaanesh, well Slaanesh lures with magic, a daemonette with its claws and it's hermaphroditic bilateral asymmetry nevertheless exudes a magical aura of attractiveness and it bypasses the reasoning mind and reaches out to deeper unconscious desires.

And remember, the Emperor doesn't know he had any kids, they are completely invisible to him. Why did he make no female primarchs? Perhaps millenia of loneliness other than occassional physical encounters because of the heartache of immortality in a world of mortals has turned him rather sour on romance? Heck he started took humanity from it's stone-age tribal shamanic society to civilisaton where it's believed huminities sexism arose so maybe the emperor is sexist and the source of societies sexism?

AluminiumWolf said:

efidm. What is 'cool' and what is a 'good flaw' are very subjective things.

I should perhaps point out to you that I am Transgender. And my partner is also Transgender. It's important you realise that Female to Male transgender people exist. That because current FtM surgical options are considered by many unsatisfactory many do not have such surgery beyond breast removal and hysterectomy. You may think "a man with no ****" is "profoundly unhip" yet Buck Angel is a successful adult film star as well as being an advocate educator and lecturer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buck_Angel

With 2%-20% of the population being to some degree Transgender (1 i every 500 people are Transsexual according to computer pioneer Lynn Conway, 2%-3% of men are crossdressers according to the APA though figures from the UK and elsewhere range from 6%-10%, 4% of live births are Intersex according to Dr Peter Koopman of the University of Queensland though many don't learn this till later in life, a minimum of 3% of Australian schoolchildren surveyed as part of LaTrobe Universities Writing Themselves In 3 study into homophobic bullying in schools classed themselves as something other than simply male or female and so were classed in the study as Gender Questioning, figures from Thailand go even higher with one school principal stating that 10%-20% of students at their school were Transgender hence why they chose to designate one bathroom just for transgender students) your remark has a surprisingly large number of people you may offend.

I'm sure you didn't intend to make an offensive transphobic remark but merely spoke out of ignorance. As i do volunteer work in the Transgender Human Rights field i can certainly provide you with some links to educational material if you so wish. A good start is the Yogyakarta Principles http://www.yogyakartaprinciples.org/ which covers existing international human rights and their application to Transgender and Intersex people.

MILLANDSON said:

Sorry, mate, let me dig around for that, which page am I looking for?

upon further inspection, the genital area is always covered by a loincloth or a text balloon. I find this "picture-based evidence" inconclusive at best. though the loincloth itself does lend credence to there being something there. I feel robbed Millandson! I expected clear proof of removed junk!

Joke!

And now I slumber.

AluminiumWolf said:

Best closing statement ever.

Action Man underwear is of course another option. Isn't there a picture back in WD 90-ish of a mentor legion guy in underwear?

I've not pondered the details over more than about 3 seconds, but in my game-world, I like marines to have present but essentially useless (for reproduction: You can still take a leak and jovial marines might tuck them between their legs to do hilarious Sororitas impersonations) wedding tackle, coupled with a complete disinterest in sex of any kind. Maybe it's the work of chemicals or whatever, but that's how I like to roll.

Being human is to a large degree about our reproductive desires and romantic relationships. I don't want my marines to be 'human' in that way.

I prefer Marines to be more "tragic" than that in the case of their lost humanity. They still feel the urges, and the desire for love, but like a knight sworn to duty, they pour themselves all the more into their missions. Makes for a more poignant image IMO.

On the other hand, the Space Wolves come home grab a pint and a serving wench and fade to black.

Fenrisnorth said:

Ah but inversely that could be all the more tragic. Desperatly trying to live like the days before becoming a marine and live the manly traditions of the ordinary people, drinking as much and as fast as they can desperately trying to beat the enhancements that prevent intoxication, boisterously talking of women never bedded, all the trappings and pretence on the outside but all a kind of hollow imitation, a show put on for morale but really no-one is fooled because all the others are pretending too. All to desperately keep at least the faint faded echo of their past lives alive, in desperate denial of their transformation, their reality, their ostracism from those central joys of once promised ordinary manhood.

If you want tragedy the spacewolves could possibly be it.

Battybattybats said:

Except they get a beer and a shag to console themselves with. I think we're back in the realms of 'it might be tragic, but at least it's cool and tragic'.

Honestly I too think that the Wolves could be great pickings if you want tragedy, but in a different way.

Let's remember that these guys are the 40k equivalent of the vikings, meaning that they know that in the end they're all doomed when the Wolftime (Ragnarok) comes about. But they fight on in the ever so slim hope that in process of going down fighting that they tip the balance in the Imperium's favor, thereby saving the Imperium through their own predestined sacrifice.

MILLANDSON said:

Sorry, not all of us can afford to (or have the desire to) read all of the books produced for GW

That seems a bit odd to me given the whole Blood Angel beauty perfection thing. I guess technically the torso contains the abdomen, but I wonder if the motivation for it was beause the artists viewed them as neuter or for some other reason (shock value without actually showing a bunch of penises in a graphic novel, which even in this day would get parents all in an uproar, let alone 9+ years ago)? Props for finding the (so far) only bit of evidence that some of the marines are sans genitals.

Siranui said:

But if they drink to get drunk and can't and they go on about women and sex and can't actually indulge in that either (whether biochemically functionally or just cause the only people around them are servitors and marines or because what women they can encounter grow old and die far faster than they do or because it's forbidden etc) then both of those things are hollow and not what they seem at all. Like eating a feast when you've lost the sense of taste and smell. Done just for show, out of habit, to hide the heartache inside.

Battybattybats said:

All this is true.

However:

Penny Arcade hit the nail right on the head; in that a lot of flavours of tragedy, angst and inhumanity are still cool. Vampires are cool et cetera. Emasculating a character in an indirect sense is culturally acceptable as pretty cool if done right, as there is still sexuality there, but doing so physically with a large pair of shears just isn't, or at least doesn't seem to be from the perspective of the majority. It steps over the divide from tragic and cool to just tragic.

Which... I actually kind of like, in many ways. As I mentioned before; Astartes are very masuline, aspirational figures. 'Perfect' heroes always need taking down a peg or to to make the prose less sickening to my mind and to take the edge of the fanboyism factor. Asartes who saved the world, then went out for a beer and picked up a bevvy of girls afterwards would be unbearably 'awesome'... possibly even more so if [*lame-angst*] it was all so empty. It's back-of-hand-stapled-to-forehead kinda stuff.

If I wanted that I'd read the Twilight saga!

Here is a thought- many of our ancient cultures involve rites of passage that surround men's junk. In many cases the ***** is a mark of masculinity (as seen by the forum reaction, and I think we can all agree it's a major part of the lives of most males and has a significant impact on our culture). Circumcisions mark rights of passage into adulthood, self administered or otherwise, prevention of circumcision to keep a 'perfect' organ perfect rather than mutilating it, etc.

So if you take a warrior culture that somewhat mimics our ancient cultures, where the male ***** is celebrated, the wee-wee chopping practices of the Space Marines would be like a big mean joke. You'd likely have to spend time focusing your indoctrination on convincing people to let the servitors or apothecaries chop it off. How many boys at 4, 8, 10, 16, 18, 25, that are willing to get their junk cut off, especially if their culture is based on some ancient warrior culture?

Why waste time with that when you can simply give them a checmical they don't know about that keeps the Emperor's seed from leaving the confines of the Astartes, and then teach him what you have to do anyway that duty comes first, loyalty to the Astartes and the Emperor is the most important thing in your lives, etc. Don't waste 6 more months convincing the guy that he doesn't need a ***** and it's cool to chop it off. And you can't tell me that forcing an unwilling man to have ***** removal surgery when he doesn't want it won't leave some pretty major scars- and I'm not sure mind wipes are accurate enough to go 'oh hey, just forget you ever had a ****, no biggie.'

But in regards to the tragedy- I don't know that it's a tragedy because they *can't*, it's a tragedy if, as many people on here feel, the warrior is actively denying himself the acts because that's what good marines do. It's not that they brag about it to their mates- why would they? Every marine in the chapter would be in the same boat, and I'm pretty sure if one guy had something different there would be some cross talk aimed at the apothecaries after the first awkward trip to the showers.

And Space Wolves, as I've been informed on these very boards, created ale with the specific function of shutting down their organs in order for them to be able to get druto get drunk. I wouldn't put it past them, or many other chapters, to come up with herbs or the like that turn their old useless junk back on.