His:

Basic noob question & comment:

Has the argument a-gainst or for a SM's sexual urges (do they or don't they have any) been officially settled? Has any DW book/FFG settled this matter once & for all? Has GW?

...

If the argument favors that the SM still have sexual urges I was wondering if the Lords of Chaos could devise female SMs to entice & lure 'em to their doom! Have they already done this? Or, for some reason that I'm unaware at the moment (please enlighten me), this is impossible - even for Gods?

Thanks!

L

Officially ? No. There are just theories about Marines simply not thinking about "it" due to their extreme level of indoctrination, or the genitals being atrophied/removed in the creation process due to being unnecessary (or perhaps for the very same reason you mentioned!), or the effect of the medical therapy their bodies are subjected to (similar to real world athletes). On the other hand, there is one Chapter with a heavily mutated gene-seed that at least celebrates parties with female Chapter serfs, though it is left open whether "something else" happens or not.

That said, I don't think a Chaos God or one of his Greater Daemons would need to create "female Marines" to lure the Astartes. It is far more likely and practical to simply affect their minds directly and have them overcome the aforementioned indoctrination, developing certain urges that can just as well be satiated by fornication with normal humans, be them willing or not. And if the "equipment" is missing, Chaos will provide. When Slaaneshi can grow boobies they can grow other things just as well.

well, since Space Marines don't have the Chem Geld Trait....

In all honesty, the Horus Heresy novels especially at the begining give a pretty good inclination that the Emperor want the Space marines to have a life after the Great Crusade. He always thought it would end, and making the marines neuter would be kinda an asshat move if he wanted them to have normal lives afterwards.

Regarding Chaos marines, Realm of Chaos Vol 1 had an Emperors Children commander (i don't recall who) demanding a planets virgin daughters. One of the early Ian Watson novels i think had a chaos marine having sex. So for the followers of Slaanesh even if originally neutered can be un-neutered by chaos.

Also regarding the possibility of female chaos marines the rules allowed it in ROCv1 where if you rolled the hermaphrodite mutation/gift a second time it resulted in a full sex change from the original form.

So as per those rules yes, female chaos marines are totally possible.

Some Slaanesh powers effect victims by arousing and entrancing and seducing them. Even if marines are de-equipped this is an unnatural power and so still can effect them regardless of the sexes involved.

Chaos aside, which isn't entirely fair since they don't play by the rules. First, these guys train the better part of 20 hours per day, and have a total of 15 minutes of potential free time. There really isn't the time in the day for a Codex Marine to create any sort of romance. Second, Marines train to such an extent, that it basically doesn't factor into their day to day. They just don't care, it's that much a part of their mindset. Lastly, it seems typical for Marines to look at themselves as apart from Humanity, nearly a parallel race. As such, they don't 'get' normal people, not in the sense that romance/copulation would be common. Physically, there seems to be no printed evidence that the plumbings gone, or non-functional. It just goes unused.

A romantic or sexual relationship between a Marine and someone else isn't out of the question, but based on the whole 'given up their humanity to save it' bit I would expect it to be pretty rare

As Lynata says, there is nothing in the text I'm aware of that says outright they cannot (and as Fenris says they don't have chem geld, much to some people's dismay), but between the monastic nature of some Chapters, the adherance to the Codex of others, there are all kinds of things that would make it difficult to establish and even harder to maintain.

In a Deathwatch setting however I'd imagine the chances would have the potential to go up, as the Marines don't appear to be monitored as closely, their day not planned as carefully, and the Marines are largely given much greater 'freedom.' You would still have to overcome the inherant detachment with being a super soldier though.

Chaos could create female space marines if it wanted to, but to me the question would be about motivation. There are plenty of other tricks, as has been said, that could be employed to lure a Marine from his duties- even if you were going to try and seduce the Marine, why go to the trouble of creating the equivalent of FSMs, or give existing SMs a sex change, when you have plenty of other demons, heritics, and cultists that could accomplish a similar mission? the FSMs would need a more important mission, task, or rationale to be worth the investment.

and making the marines neuter would be kinda an asshat move

Thank you sir, for forcing coffee through my nose. Very true though, even as the SM's 'evolve' into something different than they started (like the whole stagnant empire and the whole worshiped as a god thing), you'd not expect the general view to be "I know, if we just chopped their block and tackle they'd be twice as effective...of course we start with someone who isn't me..." Totally see it for a Chapter or two, but not for the masses.

Charmander said:

If Marines are at least infertile then individual marines can't spread geneseed dna through the general population. It's a form of control over power. Removing the whole kit and kaboodle gets rid of the distracting desires helping them focus on the task put to them.

Military eunuchs aren't new. Eunuchs develop one of two ways, they end up feminine or they end up huge and strong. China was quite fond of this for a fair while and eunuchs get quite a few places in both government and the military. The great fleet which some think circumnavigated the globe was led by an admiral who was an 8 foot tall Eunuch! Whereas in europe they were less often military and more general servents, be sacred priestesses or actresses, musical superstars and sex symbols depending on the era and region.

Some Intersex and Transgender people were spies. Le Chevalier D'Eon De'Beaumont was one who not only was a master spy buit also one of the greatest sword fighters in the world making a living later in life by defeating skilled men half her age in fencing competitions a number of which were attended by the English Prince. Not only were people unable to be certain of the sex of this French knight who lived part of their life as a man and part as a woman, part in France and part in England so much that there was quite a lot of betting on the matter but even today there is great debate as to whether she was Intersex or Transgender.

Considering the way the Imperium treats it's citizens in general i'd be very surprised if a great number of marines weren't physically or chemically castrated as standard practice and even if not were specifically designed to be infertile so the only way to reproduce gene-seed was with cloning so Marines weren't fathering super-powered sons.

No the only ones carrying the emperors genes would be his own natural children, hahahhaaa like that would have ever happened (shhhh! see realm of chaos vol. 2 shhhhh!)

the ragnar space wolf novels imply he certainly has desires (on a navigator no less) it seems likely that although the marines arent devoid of desire it is likely they would be sterile , half human half marine hybirds would give the marines too much power and go against the idea of limiting the chapter sizes and tight control of the gene seed. (can you imagine the off spring of a marine librariain and a navigator ?)

I've always simply assumed that Astartes have been so ravaged biologically by the changes made to them and the steroids and stuff that they're pumped with, that such things would be physically out of the question, and that conditioning would leave them with no interest. It also fits with the monastic lifestyle that they're modelled on. Plus: If you're building super-soldiers, you don't want to start them getting all distracted or overly sympathetic.

Basically: Their shivelled parts are simply somewhere to plug the 'waste out' hose.

I also like this because it's kinda ironic. Astartes are seen by gamers as 'ultimate macho men' and in many ways the cliched epitome of manhood. The fact that they can't get it up and spend most of their free time working up a sweat with a bunch of other guys amuses me.

In the Emperor Protects there's a woman and this is part of her description
"You observe that her shape has the curves men find pleasing—just as you might note that a bolt shell is cylindrical."
So, i don't think they are really attracted to the other sex...

Disclaimer: What follows IS NOT official information - Simply how I present Space Marines in my campaign

GW isn't saying one way or another. The information in the Black Library novels is largely contradictory. I think the only official source stating that some marines do have sex is Codex: Space Wolves where one of their heroes (Lukas, I think) is stated to be quite active sexually. However, the information in the codexes and novels is also based on perceptions of single character or a group of characters from same chapter. This opens up the avenue for a new interpretation:

Space Marines are 'human' in the sense of having the human sexual functions. There is no Chem Geld, no black carapace covering those parts, nothing like that... However, all chapters have their own culture, many of them developed over thousands of years and each of the chapters have very different views on sexuality like each of them have very different views on recruiting or combat tactics.

Many chapters take ultimately a very utilitarian view of these things. Their brothers train for 20 hours a day and never really even meet females. They don't need the sexuality for procreation. Or for any other purpose either. The kill-shot from a bolter is their ultimatye high. Better than ANYTHING. So their chapter masters have taken the logical steps and the brothers have been treated with hormone-inhibitors very early on. Chapters I could see doing this are Ultramarines, Imperial Fists, Iron Hands and a large number of their closest followers.

Other chapters are extrememly religious one way or another. Their ultimate high is their service to their religion, whether it is Imperial Cut or their own Chapter Cult. Their ultimate high is the very act of sacrificing something (or everything) for the cause. Most (or all) of their members are chaste by their own will. But they do not use hormone inhibitors since sacrifice without having something to sacrfice would be meaningless. Their individual preferences might vary. For example Blood Angels, being ultimate aesthetics, would have beautiful female serfs around, but would remain chaste as a a sign of devotion. Black Templars, on the other hand, might be rabidly sexist in their views. Chapters I could see going this route are Dark Angels, Blood Angels and their successors.

Yet a few other chapters actually think there is something to be learned from normal humans. These dynamic chapters actually believe that in order to better protect the mankind their duty is to understand mankind. At least to a degree. They usually live closer to their homeworlds population and they leave the matter of sexuality purely for individual marines own responsibility. Chapters that I could see being of this orientation are Salamanders, Raven Guard and their successors.

Oh, and then there are the wild guys who probably think pegging as many members of opposite sex is not only cool, but actually a sign of manhood and think all other chapters are full of whining sissies. These would be Space Wolves and White Scars.

Of course, given their highly male environment, comradeship and "brotherly" bonds, perhaps your idea that they could be swayed by a female marine could be modified to a male marine! I could certainly imagine marines "loving" their commander - that's how many of the chapters have gone traitor anyway.

That the relationship could lead to corruption is reasonable, IMHO.

Alex E

Ok, you guys do know that the Process of creating a space marine is a surgical one, right? The geneseed is not genetic manipulation, it's an organ, technically known as the Progenator Glad (spelling may be incorrect) that is implanted in the chest and neck. in order to sexually pass that on, the marine would literally have to *** his brains out (Along with everything else in the way). There is no way a marine would pass on his Space Marineiness to a child because all the special genetic info is wrapped up in the IMPLANTED organs.

Am I saying Marines are horny party animals? Well, maybe the Space wolves, but come on.... On the other hand, I do think they have been conditioned enough that sex isn't that important to them. However, even if they were castrati, which I see no hard evidence for, that wouldn't remove the desires from them, because a lot of testosterone is produced by the pituitary, and we don't form romantic bonds with out testicles or ovaries.

tl;dr: No evidence to claim marines are neutered, only wishful thinking.

P.S. If you have a dirty mind (like me) the line in "Horus Rising" that reads "[Loken] was truely a giant in all ways a man was measured." (emphasis is my dirty mind at work) has a whole new meaning. The line comes when a remembrancer walks in on him in the locker room, naked, like a sports reporter.

Fenrisnorth said:

On the other hand, why *wouldn't* you chemically geld then and condition to remove such urges. We're talking genetically engineered super-soldiers here, so why mess around and leave 'bits' that will only cause distraction?

Technically speaking they are surgically engineered super soldiers, as I said. Also, the gelding process often leaves animals LESS aggressive, there's reasons for and against it, but the bottom line is, there is no evidence they remove or chemically nullify their reproductive system.

Wikipedia (I can't believe I'm using Wikipedia as a source, but I haven't got medical journals around) says this about the drawbacks of castration.

"Medical consequences

"A subject of castration who is altered before the onset of puberty will retain a high voice, non-muscular build, and small genitals. He may well be taller than average, as the production of sex hormones in puberty—more specifically, estrogen via aromatization of testosterone—stops long bone growth. The person may not develop pubic hair and will have a small sex drive or none at all. Castrations after the onset of puberty will typically reduce the sex drive considerably or eliminate it altogether. Also castrated people are automatically sterile, because the testes (for males) and ovaries (for females) produce sex cells needed for sexual reproduction. Once removed the subject is infertile. The voice does not change. Some castrates report mood changes, such as depression or a more serene outlook on life. Body strength and muscle mass can decrease somewhat. Body hair sometimes may decrease. Castration prevents male pattern baldness if it is done before hair is lost. However, castration will not restore hair growth after hair has already been lost due to male pattern baldness.[65]

"Historically, eunuchs who additionally underwent a penectomy reportedly suffered from urinary incontinence associated with the removal of the *****.[66]

"Without hormone replacement therapy (HRT), typical symptoms (similar to those experienced by menopausal women) include hot flashes, gradual bone-density loss resulting in osteopenia or osteoporosis, and potential weight gain or redistribution of body fat to the hips/chest. Replacement of testosterone in the form of gel, patches, or injections can largely reverse these effects, although breast enlargement has also been reported as a possible side effect of testosterone usage.[67]"

Loss of bone calcium, muscle mass, body strength, stopping bone growth, non-muscular build.... Wow, sounds like a super soldier to me . No, I do think, especially in light of this, that the Emperor left the goodies intact, and that the space marines just redirect their sexual energy to aggression during the mission. Then it's back to the Fang to PAAAAAAARTY!

From a purely gameplay perspective you seem to have two options:

a) Declare that Space Marines aren't interested in sex and romance for whatever reason to do with their training and implants. This rules out a whole subset of potential plotlines.

b) Don't. This doesn't rule out a whole subset of potential plotlines.

Basically I think whether any given marine is interested in the opposite sex (or their own sex, for that matter) is a question for that marine's player. I don't see what you gain by taking that choice away.

Organs do not exist in genetic isolation. Even Transplanted organs as evidenced by the girl who had her blood type change.

Our cells are in constant flow. Genes turn on or off based on our diet and stress levels yet we may pass on the switched states! The grandchildren of people who went through famine have genes keyed to that event, same thing found in holocaust survivors grandchildren. That's the field of Epigenetics.

Then there is gene exchange. Viruses and bacteria change our genmes as they pass through, adding bit of our code to them and their code to us. There's genetic drift through the body which is partly how Gene Therapy is intended to work, where a disabled virus adds a gene to some cels in a persons body which will spread the new gene code through the persons body.

Some organisms even exchange not just immunities but knowledge and memories on what appears to be a cellular or genetic level, and marines are given an organ for this very purpose!

So as implanted organs can cause genetic exchange, as life experiences can switch genes on or off and be passed on in that state, as marines have an organ in their body specifically designed to gather knowledge via some form of cell/gene exchange..

Then there would indeed be a possibility of some of those genetically tailored organs passing along some superior genes if a marine could reproduce.

That is absolutely untrue. Your DNA does NOT change based on what happens to you. The article on Wikipedia specifically says that. This is not a heritable change in the genetic structure of the people turning into space marines. If this was really gene therapy they would use a specially engineered retrovirus. No, this is a surgical not a genetic process, that's the whole reason the geneseed must be recovered when a marine dies, they need to IMPLANT it in the next generation. An implant in the chest does not affect the gametes. It's not like they put in an extra "Triphasic Gonad" in the marine's scrotum.

The Blood type change is not a genetic change. Say her original blood type was O-. Her blood type is now AB+. She will pass on the GENES for O- blood, because the bone marrow is growing in her bones, not mutating her ovum.

Or are you actually claiming that if I get a heart transplant from a black person, my kids will be black?

Fenrisnorth said:

I think you're leaving a few details out of the heart example. That aside, I think you might have inspired me to name my next space marine Lamarck.

Fenrisnorth said:

You're right that if you do a bone marrow transplant you can essentially just get a 'second set' of DNA. But I think it's pretty far reaching to assume we understand the implantation process and the results of the genetics. Modern science says DNA can be altered by environment, mutated if you will, and Epigenetics says that while even if your genes and genetic code don't change udnerneath, environment can alter gene expression, and that expression is passed down in generations can be passed down in generation (so if you smoke you can alter your genes and predispose your kids to disease, etc).

All of the organs stuck inside a space marine could have dramatic impacts on other organs inside the body. We're getting into the super theoretically and super magical part of the universe here. While 'theoretically possible' I also don't have a bunch of illegitamate super space babies floating in my version of the 40k cosmos, regardless of science.

The concept of creating space marine babies aside , I'm pretty much in agreement with you; nothing indicates they get their willies chopped off and fluff does actually suppor that some Marines might take a dip in the pool.

I also agree with Polaria here- it really would depend on chapter as to what they decided to do. Fenris' evidence of the Horus Heresy fluff says the Emperor originally intended them to be one way, and each chapter would then get to decide how much to listen and how much not to. Some may chem geld, others may not. I also prefer this method because it leaves things possible, and puts it in the individual DM and characters hands how they respond to certain circumstances. It lets me leave the sex decision up to my players and their own characters, and let's them create rationale either way that supports what they envision.

@AlexFrost: It's a good line, and I like the RP value it can add and the thoughts it can start in people's heads. I also like the general openness of it, and the fact that I can interpret that to mean many things- either all SMs don't think of women that way, some SMs don't think of women that way, or SMs are focused on their mission, and picking up chicks at the tavern is for your off time.

Fenrisnorth said:

"stem cells from the new liver migrated to her bone marrow."

http://www.wellsphere.com/digestive-health-article/transplant-triggers-blood-type-change/696475

The same is theoretically possible with Gametes so you are just gonna have to deal with it. A marines implants stem cells could migrate to their reproductive organs. I happen to know people who are XX/XY Mosaic Chimera Intersex, that is they are mixtures of male cells and female cells mixed together after two fertilised eggs merged right at the beginning of development, and interestingly about 4% of live births are one of the many forms of Intersex (Source: Dr Peter Koopman University of Queensland Australia). You might find biology is a little more complex and bizarre than you expected.

I happen to have an illness Myalgic Encephalomyelitus aka Chronic Fatiguie Syndrome which involves Gene Switches being activated in my blood cells. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pathophysiology_of_chronic_fatigue_syndrome#Gene_expression_and_polymorphisms and http://www.virtualmedicalcentre.com/news/abnormal-gene-profile-found-in-chronic-fatigue-patients/7113 So what happens to you in life can and does effect aspects of gene inheritance, in what genes are switched on and what are swtched off. The field is called Epigenetics and as you source wiki here's the wiki on Epigenetics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics and another article from Science Daily http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/04/090412081315.htm which shows that environemnet DOES effect inheritance, in a subtle way not Lamarckianism but very pertinent to the subject.

Then we have Transduction! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transduction_%28genetics%29 and here we have a mechanism where genes get tranfered via virus. http://www.panspermia.org/virus.htm How we are already partly made up of virus DNA transferred to us over our evolution http://sciguy-science.blogspot.com/2010/06/half-human-and-half-virus-new-view.html

"3. Half of the human genome can be traced to a virus.
4. The virus genes have shown to be vital to the formation of specific organs in the human body."

So it's clearly within the realms of possibility that a marine could pass on some traits if fertile if stem cells from the organs were to migrate to the reproductive organs (and cells migrate constantly, which is why cancers spread and how the immune system works http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cell_migration and is also part of the aging process) or transferred via a virus subsequent to implantation. Despite it being a rare possibility it's probably more scientifically plausible than some of the organs themselves!.

You know, I sources that very wiki article on Epigenetics. It specifically states it does NOT affect your DNA, just how your DNA expresses.

"In biology, and specifically genetics, epigenetics is the study of heritable changes in phenotype (appearance) or gene expression caused by mechanisms other than changes in the underlying DNA sequence, hence the name epi- (Greek: επ?- over, above) -genetics. These changes may remain through cell divisions for the remainder of the cell's life and may also last for multiple generations. However, there is no change in the underlying DNA sequence of the organism;[1] instead, non-genetic factors cause the organism's genes to behave (or "express themselves") differently.[2] "

It only alters how the genes you have express themselves. It doesn't write new genes into your DNA. Try as he might, Lukas the Trickster is never going to sire children with two hearts. I am not a biologist, but I could easily see this as a sociological effect, rather than a biological one. On the other hand, I'm not a biologist, so Space Marine's children may well have a chance to grow a little bigger and stronger.

Having read the articles on CFS, which is a sucky condition and you have my sympathy, (not internet sarcasm) but neither of them refer to it as an acuired inheritable trait, just an inheritable one caused by existing gene abnormalities.

Interesting thing about the viruses, but I'd expect Marines to be far more resistant to that in the first place due to enhanced immune systems. The chances of that happening seem astronomically small. The virus has to:

A: Survive in the Marine long enough to run into a cell from one of the 19 Implants (chances, decent, but seems slim, see increased immune system)

B: Infect the cell and become part of it's normal replication, (Again, see above, increased Immune system.)

C: The cell switches to a virus factory (Doesn't usually happen after it absorbs the virus' RNA)

D: New virus with SM genes travels to the genitals (Avoiding destruction by the immune system along the way)

E: Infect specific meiosis cells in the testes (lucky shot virus!)

F: Again become absorbed into the cell's DNA (See step B)

G: Not disrupt meiosis

H: Beat billions of other sperm to the ovum

I: Actually express in the offspring instead of becoming one of the countless "junk genes" on the DNA strand that does nothing but replicate itself. (seems a very likely outcome)

The worst thing is, as I write this, I realize the virus can travel to the nose in step D and get sneezed out on someone to infect them. The space marine doesn't even need to sexually reproduce there.

Ok, simply put, the Emperor just has to be not an idiot, stem cells in adults usually can only replicate into the same tissue types (Multipotent, Oglipotent, and Unipotent) that's why embryonic stem cells are so important, they can become stem cells of virtually any type. So, if an Oglipotent stem cell from, say, the Omophagea, migrates to the testicles, it's not going to become a ******** cell with Omophagea DNA, it would stay an Omophagea cell and never undergo meiosis, and so never become a sperm. All he has to do is program the organs not to produce the offendingly versatile stem cells.

And finally, if the only worry is passing on SM traits, (A laughably small chance) then the answer is vasectomy, not castration. all the benefits of castration (No naughty naughty passing on the Emperor's gift), with none of the downsides (atrophy of all the systems you want beefed up in a Marine, see one of my previous posts).

I think marine Chapters use their "psyco-indoctrination" to re-channell the urge of having sex into a more "useful" way; Battle Fury, or simple anger.

they use their sexual energy to fight better, faster, stronger and to find pleasure in this

I think it would also be a question of practicality. Astartes armour incorporates waste recycling systems. How do you think does it "interface" with the Marine's bladder? Given that we're talking about a setting where people have tubes sticking out of their heads. Plus, chafing: lacking that uberhuge package which parts of the community theorize on the basis of Marines being so masculine they just have to have a big **** might also make wearing armour much more comfortable.

And at the end of the day, Marines were made for fighting. Look at the Codex Astartes daily schedule. Or do you think those 15 minutes of spare time between drilling, training, learning and sleeping are spent wanking?

That said, I also have to add that I am "biased" on this topic due to my opinion that characters, including groups of characters, need to have drawbacks to balance out advantages, lest they become Mary-Sues. For the Astartes, this means that the more abhuman they are in fighting, the more abhuman they would have to be in social interaction. I know that many people won't agree with this assessment, but that's my interpretation of the available sources (but note that, as always, I am giving studio authors more weight than licensee novel writers).

Oh but everyone that read certain novel about IF know how much sexuality there is in marine life, and in witch way that sexuality is going. IF made ancient Greek warriors proud.