My GM interprets this power as essentially a 15m blast. He says that is how it works because of the line "even then being within line of sight of the Navigator is dangerous." and that there is no facing in this game. The idea is that the Navigator's skull doesn't act as a barrier.

I would think it would make more sense if it was more like a flamer but, the rules mention nothing about what angle to use.

This became an issue because we were funneling some Orks up a ramp. The plan was for my character to use his flamer as they rounded a bend and then our Navigator to use his master level Lidless Stare them if they got too close. He was infront and to the side of me so, in theory none of use would get hit by my flamer or see his face.

Well I open up with the flamer and then he tries to use Lidless Stare. That is when the GM said that everyone around him, the whole party as well as the Orks, were hit due to his interpretation.

I am not sure what to quote to argue against this as it seems against the spirit of the power.

The Navigator makes an Opposed Willpower Test with anyone looking into his Warp Eye . The part your GM quoted is in reference to allies being able to look away from the Eye's effects if warned. Your plan was fine, if you couldn't see the Eye you wouldn't take damage. Give your GM my condolences for realising just how powerful Navigators are in combat.

My ruling as a GM was that if the navigator faces forward and his allies are behind him the allies won't get fried. However, not being able to twist and turn much makes the navigator easier to hit (+20?) and if attacked there's a chance (Willpower Test, with a bonus?) he'll inadvertently move his head enough that the Eye becomes visible to those behind him.

Errant said:

I was arguing this but, he didn't want to budge. Then someone commented it was like opening a portal into the Warp and the Warp doesn't care about material barriers. Everyone that read about the power knew how powerful it was. The first thing our Navigator did was get Master in it. Our GM was even talking about how fun it would be to throw one at us. I have asked elsewhere about this and a few thought this was just a way for the GM to try to balance the Lidless Stare.

This might just be a symptom of a bigger issue on how senses work. Since the game has nothing about facing, even if a target is shot from "behind" it would get a chance to dodge. The only way to prevent this is to conceal beforehand. I don't think we have ever tried sneaking up behind a target in combat because of this as well.

It's worth pointing out that all Navigator powers are Full Actions. This means the Navigator can't move, which also means that nobody can move up ahead of him for fear of being drawn into its effects. Also, when is the player announcing his plan to reveal his Eye? If the Navigator informs his companions that he's going to use the Lidless Stare, the GM should grant all the NPCs a Logic/Intelligence tests to realise what's going to happen and take appropriate precautions. Hell, it also means he can't wear a helmet. Any survivors are going to make it a priority to fill that squishy cranium with lasbolts pretty quick. And then there's the Fatigue cost. That doesn't go away quickly.

Errant said:

The errata makes all the Navigator powers, except those with stated durations, half actions.

In regards to helmets, Explorators medadendrites don't cause any problem for them wearing armour, so having an opening large enough for the third eye should be very simple. Even power armour only needs something that opens with the Navigator wants it to (the control for that works with the position of his third eyelid) and, given how powerful Navigators are as a group, I'd be really surprised if the Ad-mech haven't sanctioned a Third-Eye compatible power armour helmet.

As for enemies noticing the Navigators signal, that depends on how he sent it. Shouting it out, they will hear him. Shout out a code word, and they might not understand. Hand signal, maybe not (but the players might not see it either). Message over vox, very hard for enemies to notice, especially if his mouth is covered.

Happily The Lidless Stare is specified as a Full Action, so my point remains vaguely appropriate! As to the helmet, I'd require an Acquisition at say, one step higher than the availability of the armour for it. And hey, finally a use for Ciphers!

I made sure they were aware that it is a Full Action and the GM mentioned that he can't be wearing a helmet to use his eye powers. Although everyone appears to have missed that is causes at least one level of fatigue and two if he fails by two or more degrees.

The Into the Storm book has additional powers. Corrupting of the Flesh, Scourge of the Red Tide, and Stupefy the Soul all reference Pg. 180 in Rogue Trader on how to avoid a Navigator's Gaze. However Immolate the Soul actually says that the power uses a 30 degree cone and eventually becomes a Flamer and then a Heavy Flamer.

Errant said:

Wouldn't that make it an Extended Action then or like Suppressive Fire?

Although thinking about it again, since it is a blast the Navigator is in the center. So he would be seeing into his own eye and it mentions nothing about Navigators being immune to it. I could argue that interpreting the rules like this would mean the Navigator would have to be rolling against himself or die.

Navigators are immune to Warp Shock.

I meant their inability to move forward being in the case that the Navigator's Initiative is lower than the other players (Quite possible since the Navigator's Agility costs so much to increase) hampers anyone wanting to move forward past him.

Errant said:

Only thing I can find on that is that they just don't gain corruption from Warp Shock. I do not believe that makes them immune to Navigator powers. Unless I am misinterpreting your intention.

XShrike said:

This is absurd. You cannot see in your own eye unless you're holding a mirror. Why anyone would do this in combat is beyond me.

When the lidless stare is used the book mentions on p180 "If a navigator opens his warp eye fully, anyone gazing into its depths will witness the power and mind breaking unrealit of the warp." So no: even when holding a mirror a navigator wouldn't get damage from it. They peer into the warp for a living. They witness its power and unreality daily. They've been there, done that a hundreds or thousands of times. Where you get the idea of a blast is beyond me, but it is not in the RAW and its a ridiculous notion. The power's damage output negates armour and toughness bonus because it's not actually a portal. It's a window into the abyss and it basically kills people by making them so insane that they cease to function. No energy sears from it, they just look, behold the awfull reality that is the warp and die from shock.

If they have decent wisdom scores they could move past him towards the enemies relatively safely as he is using the power. Since they are warned they get a +30 to resist turning around to look into his eye (curiosity killed the cat if they fail the test). However, if they do so they're likely to fatigue the navigator to death.

Remember the fatigue a navigator gets... for me the rules are unclear as to whether that's per enemy that wins the opposed willpower test, or just the best enemy result that counts to see if he takes 2 levels of fatigue. I'd rule it's per enemy. So using it vs a mob of thugs could be either very powerfull ... or it can tax the navigator so much that by the time all thugs have stared in it he's unconscious on the floor.

Badlapje said:

It does do Energy damage. I agree that it's not a "blast" or anything like that though. I see it as a link being created between the person meeting the navigator's gaze and the power of the warp, potentially burning the victim to a pile of charred bones.

It makes you so mad that your brain and then you catch fire and explode ? Nice.

Badlapje said:

Badlapje said:

I've always taken it to be that the WP roll has two components:

- An unopposed component to activate the power. If this is failed, the power doesn't activate, and the rest doesn't happen. This is the part that deals the extra fatigue.

- The opposed part. This is an opposed test that uses the same roll as the previous part.

For example: Lets say a Navigator has 50 WP, with no willpower modifiers:

- If he rolls 50 or less, all characters in range have to check to see if they fail the opposed part.

- If he rolls 51-59, he failed the test to activate the power. Other characters don't roll.

- 60+, he fails the test badly enough to take the second level of fatigue, Other characters don't roll.

Side note:

I found a part in Matthew Farrer's Legacy (not a very good book BTW) describing what sounds like the Lidless Stare.

"..it suddenly seemed as though a freezing wind laced with sleet and vapour was scouring at him. There was roaring white noise in his ears, and the metal ridges on his head seemed to burn. The augmetic receptors buried in his ears burst into life, registering static that sounded like keening voices, and in his vision the woman’s warp eye grew and grew until it filled his sight with purest blackness—
It took a second and a half for her gaze to blow out every synapse in [his] brain and send him spasming to the floor. She put a foot on his wrist to make sure the gun could not flail up at her and go off, and waited for the last twitches to subside."

Badlapje said:

Agreed, if you at least read the first post you would know that this is how our GM in interpreting this power to work in this system. I am not defending this stance and made this post in an attempt to find help against it.

Unless I can find something in the rules to back me up, he is not going to budge on that this power is some how a Blast (15). I was thinking of taking his interpretation to an extreme in an attempt to show that it is absurd. So if he wants to still claim that this hits like a blast, the Navigator would then be hit by his own power. Nothing in the rules say that Navigator's a immune to this power. The closest thing is that Navigator's don't gain Corruption from Warp Shock. If one Navigator did this to another Navigator it would work on the other Navigator. Navigators tend to have high Willpower so he would probably pass the check.

The way the power should work is the Navigator, as a Full Action, rolls to see if the power even goes off. Whatever the outcome he is gaining at least one level of Fatigue. If he fails by a degree or more then he gets two levels of Fatigue. If he succeeds everything, friend or foe, that can see his third eye has to make its own separate Willpower check. This should be at least a Flamer arc and at the most 180 degrees "in front" of the Navigator. To pass this check you need to get more successes than the Navigator got on his roll to see if the power goes off. If you were warned to look away or are just unaware of the Navigator you get a +30 to your roll. If you pass then nothing happens, if you don't then you are at least going to take some damage and get stunned. At worst you are going to take a lot of damage, get stunned for longer, and then roll to see if you just drop dead. Provided that the target is smart enough to realize this. This is also assuming that whatever is in this area isn't part of the groups that are immune.

Try this argument:

- The RAW says "roll once for the Navigator".

- Therefore that roll is both sides of the test to see if the Navigator is hurt. Thus the Navigator gets the same amount of DOS on both sides of the test

- The RAW also says "If the Navigator achieves more degrees of success" as the trigger condition. This means that if both characters have the same DOS, the power fails. It doesn't go into the tiebreaker rules on page 232 (involving the characteristic bonus and lowest roll), though those rules wouldn't help either as the stats and roll are identical.

- Since the Navigator doesn't manage to score more DOS than himself, he isn't affected by his own power.

I appariate the help and input everyone is giving me on this topic.

The Navigator player himself brought up that sometimes Navigators are born without a physical third eye, in support of the GMs version of the Lidless Stare. It may not actually be there or it just covered by skin and/or bone. I said in those the cases, where the eye is just covered up, that they use surgery and implants to expose it. He then claimed that there are still Navigators without a physical eye. He claimed the third eye is more like a metaphor for how the Navigators interact with the warp.

It wasn't until thinking about it more, in this thread, that I thought of a counter for that. If you are going to try to play a Navigator that can still some how do his job without a physical third then you can't use any of the Navigator powers that actually mention using or opening a physical third eye. That is a whole other issue though.

Bilateralrope said:

But, that would be trying to counter my attempt to show that interpreting The Lidless Stare is essentially a blast (15) does not make sense.....

Our GM insists that because there is no facing in these systems that the Lidless Stare would hit everything that is within 15 meters from and that can see the Navigator. He backs this up by using the line, "though even then being within line of sight of a Navigator is dangerous." from the "Avoiding a Navigator's Gaze" section. His claim is that it doesn't matter if the Navigator couldn't see a target, the target can see him, and therefore can be hit. If it said, "though even then being within the line of sight of a Navigator is dangerous" he wouldn't be able to use that line as support.

My objective with claiming that the Navigator would get hit as well is to show the logical fallacy of his argument. The Navigator is within those 15 meters and can see himself.

"The Lidless Stare will affect anyone, friend or foe, that looks into the Navigator’s third eye when this power is activated."

You need to "look into the Navigator's third eye" to be affected. Clearly, if you can't see the navigator's third eye, you can't be affected.

Does the GM permit the navigator to 'firmly facing to a direction', thus at most it will only influence those 'in front of him', with the penalty any attacks originating from 'behind' the navigator are treated as attacking unaware target?

XShrike said:

Read my post again. I quoted what you needed from the rules. To make it easier for you (p180 CRB):

- The first section says: "If a navigator opens his warp eye fully, anyone gazing into its depths ... ". This means you have to actually look into the eye in order for it to do damage. Whether you argue that it is an actual eye or a portal to the warp doesn't matter for the blast discussion. If you don't gaze into it then it doesn't do damage. That clearly means it's no blast, as that would mean whether or not you look into it, the damage is done.

- The test to see whether or not damage is inflicted is a WP test. If it were a blast of energy, it'd be an Agility test or a Toughness test. It isn't, because the entire reason for the damage is, again, looking into the third eye of the navigator.

- The bit about avoiding a navigator's gaze says three things of import for your discussion:

1. "The Lidless Stare will affect anyone, friend or foe, that looks into the Navigator's third eye when this power is activated ." This has, again, one simple implication: being that if you don't look it doesn't damage you.

2. "Those forwarned can look away , though even then being within line of sight of a Navigator is dangerous. The power of his eye is persuasive, and looking away only grants them +30 on their rolls to resist its power. Those who are unaware of the navigator's presence gain this bonus as well."

Again it is stated that looking away will mean that no damage is done ... not jumping away as would be the case for a blast. It goes on to specify that the power of the eye is persuasive and that is why even though looking away gives a +30 to your WP test, it doesn't mean you don't have to test. There's a part of any human - save an untouchable - that wants to peer into the Abyss and see what's there. Hubris has been the undoing of so many individuals in mankinds history, this here is no different. You look away, but your curiosity gets the better of you if your WP test fails and you look yet ... and suffer the damage for it. Think of it like a magnet for the mind ... it draws your eyes towards it if you are weak of will.

It also speaks of line of sight. Whether or not rules regarding facing are in the book or not, it clearly speaks about line of sight OF a navigator. Not TO a navigator, but of. That oughta resolve the debate right there really.

3. "This has an effective range of 15m (reduced to 5m in fog or mist) and has no effect on unliving targets , untouchables and daemons or other entities from the warp."

If your GM were correct and it is a blast of energy from the immaterium then unliving targets would be affected as well as untouchables for that matter. Further more, i'm pretty sure that fog/mist wouldn't reduce it's radius by 66,67% if that were the case. And once again: if it is a blast it would have stated to have a 15m RADIUS, not RANGE.

Hope that helps?

Bilateralrope said:

That's not what the book says. The activating the power part is just a choice the navigator makes. But once it is actived the following happens:

1. everyone in his line of sight for 15 m (i reckon it's like the arc of a flamer) has to make an opposed WP test with the navigator (they get +30 if warned to look away or unaware of the navigator's gaze).

2. for every enemy that fails the test damage is done to that enemy.

3. for every enemy that wins the test by 2 degrees or more, he gains a level of fatigue (<--- this part is unclear in the book though. There is no maximum given, i'll send in a ticket concerning this).

4. he gains a level of fatigue once the above is done, regardless of whether he did damage to anyone or not.

Badlapje said:

I interpreted that part to only trigger once at the initial power activation. No what matter what happens he is taking one level of Fatigue. If he fails his Willpower test by a degree or more than he suffers two levels of Fatigue. I am not sure if that is in addition to or instead of the mandatory level of Fatigue though.

I don't really see the power as a battle of wills. It is more like the Navigator uses his will to control the power. If he does really well at it then it makes it harder for whatever is hit to avoid the effects.

I guess it is possible for the power to still go off if he fails but, the rules on Opposed Tests pretty much say that nothing happens. As it doesn't mater if whatever is in the zone of effect fails their Willpower tests. The results of both sides failing an Opposed Test is a stalemate, nothing happens, or essentially a rematch.

On a side note your response does help as it is another direction I can come at the debate from. I was reading your initial post as if you were thinking that I was the one arguing for this power to be a blast. The "Navigator behind hit by his own power" idea was an attempt to fight fire with fire. If he was going to try to read the rules like this then I was going to show the extent that his interpretation would alter the power.

Ah my bad then. No i think your gm is insane. Honestly: why would a navigator use that power if it's a blast of actual energy? It's pretty much a suicidal attack. If you open a portal to the warp, no telling what's coming through:

Navigator: "i rolled a 12, all 8 of the hive scum opponents are dead, no way they can resist my Lidless Stare mastery!, w00h00!!!"

GM: "so it seems, however, as the smoke settles from the blast, you notice a greater deamon of Slaanesh has seized the opportunity your portal presented and is now loose in the material plane. It has already killed two of the hive scum that managed to duck behind those metal containers and is now turning towards you."

Navigator: "uhm, ..., i run?"