Wotcha

Just a couple of quick questions, with associated situations that i could use some clarification on.

1) Can an investigator voluntarily go insane or KO to gain a benefit? Situation is with the Dilettante and the Lurker expansion. Having a couple of pacts, the player would get to 1 stamina, then voluntarily drop to zero and go to Arkham or the Hospital. It felt wrong but the rules dont say it cant happen.

2) Deputy's patrol car - can you literally 'teleport' to a location or do you still have to move via the board, thus encountering any monsters along your chosen route?

Im sure the answers are far simpler than i might imagine, but the rules lawyer in me isnt so sure.

Many thanks in advance.

B

1) I don't think you can do that.

2) Using the Patrol Wagon it's like teleporting, you don't have to face any monsters. Just remember that you do it INSTEAD of your normal movement.

1) I don't see why not. The pacts say you can "lose" sanity to gain power. Unfortunately, "lose" is not "spend" so technically you could choose to lose 50 sanity and gain power. Clearly though, the intent is not to be able to do this.

2) You teleport. This operates instead of normal movement, so you don't deal with monsters or trade with investigators (except at your starting and ending spaces).

Tibs said:

I vaguley remember this debate, and I vaguely remember some kind of quasi-official determination saying you could "lose" more of a stat than you had left, but you couldn't "spend" more. Personally I think it's bollocks either way. If you only have 1 sanity left, you only have 1 sanity left. Anything that asks you to reduce your sanity more than what you have remaining should stop at zero in my books. I can't think of anything where it would make sense to "lose" more than you have left to lose.

But that's an entire tangent from the OP's question. I would agree that if there is an effect that is reducing your investigator's sanity you could choose to have it reduced to zero if you wanted (ie: you could voluntarily not make use of any other powers or options that might save you if you feel it's for the greater good.) However, I don't think you should be able to just "go insane" on demand, without an effect that reduces your stat. Maybe I'm missing somethin gin the wording of the OP's question but that's what it sounds like he's asking to me.

Brucifer said:

Thematically speaking, the car is moving too fast for any monsters to catch you as you drive past. You don't literally teleport, but you also don't need to circumvent any obstalces along the way like you would on foot.

The effect that is driving you insane is the pact, which can be triggered on command. My point above is that even though you can declare, "I lose 50 sanity," you really only should gain as much power as the sanity you actually lost.

The Lurker herald has sure caused a lot of trouble, eh?

Lol, no not that much. In fact our first game with it made life easier than ever before, but i suspect we just got lucky and used all of said luck up for the next game when we get beaten like ginger stepchildren.

The Patrol Car seems to make sense. As i said it just seemed 'too good', but i get the driving fast bit. As to the going insane/KO loop, its not the player was getting infinite power, just that he was choosing to go to zero and that felt wrong somehow. We've been playing to the rules strictly, and are happy to do so or amend as is required (our group must have 100 years of gaming under its belt between us) and i think that we may go with 'may not choose to go below 0 San/Sta, may only be forced to' just to stop an exploit.

Many many thanks to the community.

B

With regards to the "infinity loop" scenario:

When you go insane or unconscious, you go to 1 sanity or stamina (or full, with Injury or Madness). This can't be interpreted as a gain and can't be turned into power. Because if you do, then you're no longer "going to" 1 (or full) stamina, which means you're no longer going unconscious (or gaining an Injury). But you are , so it must not be the case that you're turning this "recovery" stamina into clues.

Tibs said:

...

BLEEPEDY BLEEPEDY BLEEP!

Another reason I hate Lurker... Hey, let's kill the Dunwich Horror with infinite dice. Or better yet. Everyone use this for infinite power tokens, then just go to final battle, you don't even need Massa di Requiem per Shuggay if you're willing to wait. Gee. I wonder who will win in final battle, the Ancient One, or the investigator with infinite power?

Well, my point was that this can't be exploited. If you wind up at some amount of sanity/stamina other than 1 (or full if taking an I/M card), then you haven't fulfilled the requirements of being insane or unconscious, and thus the move is illegal.

You can't turn such points into power.

In any case, since infinity is a number, you can't take "infinity" of anything and then trot along like nothing happened. There will never be an AO-versus-ifinitely-powerful-investigator scenario because, officially, infinite loops must be broken by canceling the loop and going insane.

Also, gaining infinite anything is enough to rip the universe a new one. Not even Yog-Sothoth can combat a singularity.

Tibs said:

Oh... ::Laughter:: I forgot you had to exhaust the pacts (I haven't used them for so long)... I thought you could just gain 1 infinite times.

Tibs said:

Isn't that what they're supposed to do? Create confusion, anger and fear?

avec said:

...

WHAT

LURKER HAS BEEN THE BEST HERALD ALL THIS TIME??

Guardian in the game, Herald in RL...

Avi_dreader said:

How come your box had infinite power tokens? Mine only had 35. Maybe there was a punch sheet or two missing...

Cim has a good point. Arkham is a game that specifically disallows you to use tokens that don't exist. When you run out of clue tokens that's it, should be the same for power tokens.

Veet said:

Wasn't it stated by someone who had a clear sight of the things to come that actually clues are *endless* (whenever you have to collect one, return it to the bank ::laughter: ? I clearly remember Avi sobbing for this decision

Clues being limited was explicitly stated for the League scenarios. I suppose it might not have been true in general, but I doubt it.

(I've never come that close to running out anyway, but I suppose with Innsmouth and Dunwich in play, that's 20 on the board to start with, so it's quite possible that they could run out even before a many-investigator game starts)

Power, on the other hand, is in the LatT rulesheet (second page, second column, about half way down) "Note that if no Power tokens are available, any ability or effect that would give Power tokens to a player is ignored. If more than one player receives Power tokens and there are not enough for everyone, the first player chooses the order in which players receive their tokens."

cim said:

Heh... I'd know the power rules better if I actually used Lurker normally ;'D

Avi_dreader said:

But you DO remember yourself sobbing for unlimited clues, don't you? ::smiling::

Julia said:

I think there was a very conspicuous silence in the above response ;'D

Well, the rules don't say we're limited to clues. Just like how some Rumors call for Doom Tokens. So what happens if you have to add a Doom Token, and you have none? Does Azathoth stay asleep? Of course not! That'd be silly (and some scenarios, keeps AOs permanently asleep). Similarly, use other markers (remember those KiY tokens that no one uses for their actual purpose?) to use as markers for items (Golden Trumpet, etc.), rumors, or even as groups of 5/10 clues (for when Patrice decides to look in the mirror...).

It does, of course, address Running out of gates, monsters, cult encounters, etc. These are certainly limited, and address them directly!

This is the scenario FAQ post where it's stated clues are limited resources (but doom tokens, clues, etc. used as rumour markers are just markers and not limited). It's not stated whether this applies in non-league play, though.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=44&efcid=1&efidt=59701

EcnoTheNeato said:

That's because they don't actually have a purpose.

cim said:

I can say this... JR did not have an excellent grasp of the rules (which is why I had to help him rewrite some of the rules text).