Definitely "yes, it is opposed".

JerusalemJones said:

Another interesting thing: since attacking the Hand automatically makes it count its STR, you are not actually forced to declare it as a defender when it is attacked - or kneel it to do do if it is standing.

Ok, I guess we are making things difficult too. Here is our problem.

First, how does the attachment Blood of the Dragon work on the Hand? Does it count the +6 even for the Hand attack? I am assuming yes, but want to clarify.

Second, if the opposing Hand has Dragon Bite and is attacked. Will it die, lose a gold, each time it is attacked, until it is out of play? I saw that a Hand Challenge can not be unopposed, but even if you are knelt you oppose and can be killed by the card effect. I am sorry to be asking, and it should seem easy to grasp, but we just want to make sure.

Bah, also have to ask about deadly, if they attack your Hand with it. I am assuming they are going to kill you (Cost you a gold from the Hand.). There is nothing you can do as your Hand has to be in the fight. Please let me know this right.

Nipponb said:

Yeah. Probably.

Nipponb said:

See above. The Hand is participating as a defender in any challenge against him. Blood of the Dragon says "while participating in a challenge, attached character gains...." Not to be excessively rude, but there really isn't much to clarify there.

Nipponb said:

Not "each time it is attacked." Rather, when it is attacked the one time (by a Dragon), it gets into a terminal effect - no different that a "kill at 0" situation. You remove gold tokens until it is at "printed cost - 1" and remove the Hand from play. When it leaves play, it loses all attachments, so Dragon Bite goes away.

Nipponb said:

You are taking a bit too much of a literalist view on that. Just like any other participating character that leaves play before the resolution of a challenge, if something knocks the Hand out of play during the challenge, it is no longer participating in the challenge or counting it's STR - which sets up for the challenge to be unopposed.

Nipponb said:

Seriously, you are over-thinking this. The Hand is a participating defender in a challenge declared against it. So you treat it as you would any other participating defender. Just ask yourself "if this were not my Hand and I declared it as a defender, what would happen"?

ktom said:

If NipponB is who I think it is, I'm not surprised we're on the same wavelength regarding deadly. Because the wording of the rules says "automatically counts its STR" but does not specify that's it's participating (and this has further implications with regard to participatory Responses:) and the rules typically suggest we not assume something is not written, I was wondering if the character was being counted as a participant, and instead was more akin to the STR bonus from MP title's or the SoS warships. I'm happy to play it either way, but it'll help to be prepared for the ruling.

Maester_LUke said:

If you want to get really technical about what the rules say, note that it does not say that the Hand "automatically counts its STR" on the defending side of the challenge. So you are assuming something that is not written right there. Generally, you should not assume something that is not written - provided that the assumption cannot be derived and supported by the rest of the rules. There are plenty of things that are not written on the cards that we "assume" because that is how the rules work.

Note that the Core Rules say that you count the STR of the attacking and defending characters to get the total challenge STR. That means the only characters that count their STR are participating characters. So, since we know that the Hand can be used (and thus acts) as any other character while it is in play, "automatically counts its STR" by extension makes it a participating character...just without being declared as a defender. This is supported by the wording in the Hand variant rules saying "other eligible characters may also be declared as defenders." You also have to consider that according to the rules, in order for a challenge to be opposed, and won, you must have a total challenge STR greater than 0 and have a participating character. So "automatically" counting the Hand's STR will do you no good during challenge resolution unless you also have a participating character. Since you are not required to declare another defender, the Hand must be a participant - or else it could not effective count its STR (automatically or otherwise). That's the same reason the "+3 Melee Titles" require there to be a participating character before they even do add to challenge STR.

So the idea that declaring a challenge against the Hand automatically makes it a defending character in the challenge is derived from the rules we have for how characters count their STR during challenges.

So, does this make your previous post in another thread (it was about Eddard not techinically being a participating/defending character) false now?

Mantaeus said:

Would Starfall give additional strength to a House Dayne Hand? I do know that the response for it would not work since the rules say that card effects cannot add or move Gold Tokens onto or off of the Hand.

ZombiePrime said: