This weekend, I played my first Joust AGOT matches in over 2 ½ years. John K. (Deathjester26) invited me over to his home to play some cards and I was very excited to play this game that I love but haven’t had much time or inclination to play in awhile.

(Quick backstory for those who don’t know….in August 2007, I place 2nd in the AGOT Championships in Indy, losing to Sam Tham in the Finals. Little did I know that three weeks later I would be hospitalized with a virus that attacked my red blood cells and put me in a coma for a week. The doctors told my family that I wouldn’t make it. After regaining consciousness, it took almost a month to return to work.)

After my illness, life just wasn’t the same for me. I lost interest in many things, including A Game of Thrones. I played my first game after that in December 2007. I did continue to play the game competitively locally and in the US tourney scene. I attended ChiCon III (where I lost for the first time ever to Kennon, the first sign that it was time for me to hang it up!). I won Kublacon, played at Origins. I played in the World Championships at GenCon 2008, the first time there would be a Joust Champ, Melee Champ and Overall Champ. I didn’t place in the Top 8 in Joust (the only real championship that matters to me) thanks to Nate talking me out of the deck that I wanted to play (just kidding Nate!). I enjoyed playing the game, but the passion wasn’t there for me anymore. Little did I know this would be my last Joust until January 2011!

When there was a ranking system in place, I was ranked #1 for over two years, won a World Championship in 2005, regularly attended and placed in many tourneys coast-to-coast, but I wasn’t really into the game anymore. I now realize, that my illness affected many things in my life, including my drive and passion for many things, including AGOT. When the announcement in September of 2008 was made about cycling out all non-LCG cards from the Standard Environment, I knew that I was done with the game.
I played one Melee match with some friends (including Deathjester26) in January 2010, when we got together for a Board Game Day and sneaked in one game of AGOT with John’s cards. We played one more Melee match on another Board Game Day in January 2011. I was making changes in my life and lessening my work commitments. I thought now would be a time to take another look at playing AGOT. As I reported before, I spent over $400 re-investing in the game and buying all of the Chapter Packs and House Expansions that had been released since Gencon 2008. Was I ready to return to playing? Nope! I still had to finish commitments are work. (For those who don’t know, I teach high school math, but I’m also the Math Department Chairperson, the Yearbook Advisor and amazingly enough, the Cheerleading Coach! I still don’t know how that happened!) Anyway, I’m giving up my extracurricular obligations when school ends this semester at the end of June. I need a new toy to play with. Why not A Game of Thrones, with a whole bunch of new cards, mechanics and players that I don’t know?

So, Deathjester26 invited me down to play some games to whet my appetite for the game. As of right now, all of the cards that I purchased are still unopened. We used John’s decks for the games. He has fives decks, one for each house except Greyjoy.
Below are my observations/opinions. I hope no one is offended in any way. These are just my thoughts.

1) I’m rusty, but I didn’t forget everything. When I last played there were no Shadows or Gold Pools. I remembered these (most of the time).
2) My eyes are worse now. I have to take my glasses off to read the cards!
3) John Kraus has really improved at deck-building and playing his decks. I can see why he was the runner-up at last year’s World Championships at GenCon 2010.
4) Does Greyjoy really suck? I’m sorry to see this.
5) The game needs more targeted Land Destruction.
6) I still want to see massive rush/weenie removal. Didn’t this game used to have a card for that? (First Snow or something like that! LOL)
7) Baratheon Rush is fun, but I hate fast games. This is great for a tourney, but sucks in casual play. Huge NPE.
8) Martell still makes me think a lot and still has the coolest house mechanics. I want more reveal.
9) Val is a stupid card. I hate auto-includes. I want to see a variety in the different deck-builds for each house.
10) The Laughing Storm? No discard? I want Intrigue to matter. Martell and Lannister have always needed this. Not a fan of the card.
11) Val with The Laughing Storm is EXTREMELY stupid! I don't want to see this game make broken cards.
12) I still love Lannister. No matter what, this will always be my favorite house to play. I love the sneakiness of the house in the gameplay.
13) Why aren’t the Uniques in Stark, especially the key nobles, cooler? I want a kick-ass Eddard, Robb and a fun, non-errated Bran!
14) Targaryen burn is fun and semi-viable, but very slow and cost/influence intensive.
15) I will play this game again, but lack the drive to truly be competitive again. Maybe Kublacon (if I go) or the end of the school year will bring my passion back. I am however, looking forward to hanging with some of the great friends that I have made in this game.
16) The best player that I have ever played against is Nate French. He is without a doubt, the smartest player and deckbuilder this game has ever seen and should have won the very first GenCon (taking nothing away from Casey, who beat me in the first round of 8 that year).
17) The player that I always hate to play in a tourney, because I always think he’ll win is Matt Ley (Rings). Although, First Snow (Final Four in 2007) was my favorite match-up! ?
18) Melee SUCKS big-time for tourney play. It can be fun a game here and a game there. I love the bantering, mind games, smack-talking, alliances, etc. that occur in a Melee match. I just don’t think a “champion” title should be given for it.
19) Joust is still waaaaaaaaaaay better than Melee. I want to win on MY merits, not the play, stupidity, resentment, etc. from other players at my table. As far I’m concerned, Joust in the “Only Game That Matters”. The only true champions are Casey Galvan (2003). Greg Atkinson (2004 & 2009), John Bruno (2005), Matt Ley (2006), Sam Tham (2007), Luke Reed (2008) and Alec Irwin (2010). No offense to anyone who won a Melee or Overall title, but Joust is the game I love.

Thanks for reading! Hopefully writing this will inspire me to open up all of my chapter packs, sort my cards and build a deck of my own!

I don't know you and we've never met or played cards together, but I just wanted to say I'm glad you survived your ordeal. Your story was quite scary. Whether or not you regain your passion for AGOT is irrelevant in my mind considering what you have overcome just to still be with us.

Honor to you and your house and many blessings.

I agree with your assessment of joust vs. melee as well. When I first started this game I almost exclusively played melee. It's how I learned the game. But I have found that I prefer joust over time because my wins or losses aren't related to a third party's actions (or inactions). I win or lose on my own merit and I like it that way.

It would great if you could make it up to Kubla Mathlete. As more players throw in their hats (rings, dobbler, you) I am more inclined to not miss Kubla this year even if I havent played myself since just after CaliCon.

mathlete said:

~Please tell me you got rid of the math stuff and kept the cheerleading.

Joking aside, I really enjoyed reading your post. I've only been playing for half a year or so, so I haven't been around for the glory days of yore, and I obviously don't know you. Nevertheless I want to say I'm glad you made it back. And I don't mean just the game. I'm looking forward to reading your contributions in the future. There's a lot a noob like me can learn listening to the old hands talking. I'm sure.

Also, I agree with pretty much all of your observations, which must mean they're kinda astute. Oh, except for the Bara rush one. I like Bara rush.

Correction: I like to PLAY Bara rush. Not so sure about playing AGAINST it

Ratatoskr said:

^Awesome.

I'm glad we finally got some joust games in. I promise you, there are better decks out there, but hopefully you got a small taste of the competition the game has to offer now days.

May you enjoy screwing over friends old and new in this game for years to come!

Great to have "one of the best players" up again. I agree in most of your points about the game:

-melee sucks

-I hate autoinclude

-TLS is "not the way" to follow

-combo that ruin the game (like TLS and Val) should be erased

-no "WAU" top char in stark :-(

Keep on rocking!!!

mathlete said:

Hey, glad to hear that your doing better! Life can be rough sometimes.

1] Greyjoy is "ok" but they are just way behind in power level [with targ] compared to some of the other houses. Their themes are just too widespread and require too many cards to get any synergy going[targ as well]

2] More Targeted land destruction would be nice. There are some really powerful locations right now and some answers to those would be nice

3] Is it bad that Targ in general, Grey Wind, and Venemous Blade on their own has me rethinking every 2str character i put in my decks?

4] Bara rush is boring. Casual play it's just not fun to play with or against. Played 3 games yesterday and on 2nd turn in about every game my friend was like..."have you won yet?" lol...that could not have been a good experience for him.

5] Val is a very stupid card. Problem is, with no in-house draw mechanics for a lot of the houses she is an auto include. Not so much for Lanni or Martell since they can draw enough anyway. But super powerful neutral cards should not be printed. scrap these and give me flavorful in-house cards!

6]The Laughing Storm from a design perspective is just not something that was needed for Bara. And with the aforementioned Val he creates a draw engine that is just stupid.

7]With the exception of CS Eddard[who is awesome!] CS Arya, LoW Catelyn, and Blackfish, I have to agree that most of the Uniques in Stark are pieces of crap.

8] Targ burn is waaaaayyyy too resource intensive. Would be viable if Burn was cheaper, more easily accessible, and had some repeatable effects that weren't one shots and done.

mathlete said:

Quote button messed up. Anyway here is the rest...

Amen Brother!!! Melee is stupid. There should not be an "Overall" World Champion The only thing that does is reward someone for not winning the games that he/she should have. I'm sorry but placing 10th or whatever in Melee and then 3rd or 4th in Joust should not make you a World Champion because you didn't win anything. An overall world championship rewards losing. No thanks. Joust World champion is the only thing that matters. No offense to any overall world champion. Joust is why we play this game.

Gee: what a shock you don't liek Laughing Storm. God forbid Baratheon has a glimmer of a chacne against your beloved, perverted Lannisters.

Good to see you back, old man. (You're one of the only guys I can say that to). Missed you a LOT.

#1 - Great to have you back. Even if it is once in awhile for more casual games. To be honest, that is how it has always been for me - especially with family. It also makes the fewer times you actually get to play that much better. ~In that way, gaming after marriage is kind of like sex after marraige Sounds like it is the same with life-altering almost deaths. You hit the game VERY hard over the first years, there is probably a medium level that allows you to do all your family/school/personal stuff, but still get together with friends and throw down some cards.

#2 - You better make it to Kubla - you have so many friends going! And that is really the reason we play.

#3 - hopefully the HBO series will give you even more passion.

I just want you posting again, another voice of reason would help from a competative player. Even when I disagree with you

Anyways, you were always good for the game, ~and good for my chances of getting through the Top 8. Just kidding - I still think my overall record vs. you is negative. Hopefully you can turn the switch and enjoy the game if you are not the odds-on favorite to win every year!!!

Take care, and hope to see you in Cali soon (i.e. Memorial Day).

P.S. - I agree with everything except the Stark uniques, they have just as many really good ones as anyone else. Eddard is great, Blackfish, jumping Cat, Cat 'o Canals, Hodor, Shaggy, Rob (okay he sucks, but Grey Wind on him is great), Rob's wife, with a host of just playable ones. They are probably middle of the pack in good uniques - way above GJ, and easily equal to Martell and probably Targ.

I especially agree with the Melee, I know FFG's reasonings...but the World winner is the GenCon Joust winner. Shared with the European Joust winner at the castle.

Great story, glad to see someone come back from the brink, all your points are fair except about melee

I am well aware that I am in the minority here and going against the grain but Melee is the only game that matters. Joust is some silly simulation of a perfect world where 2 enemies engage in heads up battle until a winner is declared. I have no problem playing certain games like that but thats not the Game of Thrones. (i capitalize for dramatic effect) Game of Thrones is inherently about deals and manipulation, seeing the whole board and making assumptions on the way things are going to shake out. I think the real genius of this game is the ability of the game designers to create an experience that feels much like the books feel. .Melee feels authentic or at least "nedly." While Joust just feels like the Tourney for Joffreys 13th name day. . . .. sad, empty and lacking danger. If you really want to win a game on your merits win a game of melee, because there is no greater win than being able to see the board and where it will go, manipulate alliances and stupidity, anticipate hostility and resentment, point out a false threat to focus your opponents on while you put yourself in position to steal the win.

A Champion title should be given only when including the results of melee, Joust takes intelligent deckbuilding and intelligent play, melee takes intelligent deckbuilding, intelligent play, manipulation, strategy and misdirection.

No offense to anyone who won a joust title, but melee is the Game of Thrones.

jack merridew said:

~I'm now going to target you consistently in every melee game we ever play together jack merridew!!!

Seriously though, I see your point. I prefer to play melee CASUALLY, as I also feel it best represents the world of Westeros due to your points above.

jack merridew said:

That made me laugh out loud. I do love and prefer melee for the same reasons you do, but I think joust can be fun too. It is certainly less messy than melee, and I understand why many people prefer it. But deeming melee unworthy because it requires a different/expanded skill set seems unfair to me. Tywin was bad-ass not only because he could expertly command an army on the battlefield but because some wars are won with quills, and he knew how to do that too.

Hi Mathlete! Great to have you back and doing well. I was newer to this game (at least the competitive scene) when you had your falling out, but I've heard a lot of (good) things about you and your playing.

About what you said, I think you're spot on with most of your observations. I especially think what you say about location discard is true (powerful locations are running rampant these days, with relatively little risk). Separately, Val is just the lightning rod for what, I think, is a proliferation of powerful neutral cards that leech in-house flavor out of the game.

Sadly, as you experienced, Targaryen burn has lost a lot of its charm these days, and the house in general (not just burn builds) feels very slow/clunky. The house seemed to have picked up slightly with the most recent Brotherhood cycle though, and there's a lot of hope for the upcoming Targ box.

Of course, totally agree on the joust vs. melee opinion. I think the problem is NOT that joust is inherently better (though I do prefer it), but that ~90% of the cards have been designed with joust in mind. That means cards that encourage multiplayer interaction don't see much play, other than the Core Set plots. If there were more cards with trade-offs that rewarded or forced you to work with/against another player, I think melee would feel less chaotic/arbitrary and more controllable (ie friends wouldn't always just gang up on the random stranger or person with the worst haircut). Hopefully that's a design space that FFG explores at some point in the future!

mathlete said:

New to the forums. Created an account in order to reply to this. I disagree with you on one point in general, and a different point specifically.

I'm new to AGoT, so my experience is different (and likely pales in comparison to yours), but I would like to disagree vehemently. There are dozens of card games out there where you can play mano-a-mano. I started playing AGoT because of melee, and I think I'm far from alone. AGoT stands out because it has multiplayer built in. The game rests on an assumption that about half the games will involve more than two players. For those of us who host regular board game nights and like to get a large group of people around a table, this allows for deck-building, supported throughout the chapter packs, with a large group in mind.

Second, I think your argument about winning on your merits is not accurate. I think diplomacy, and the ability to manipulate fellow players (both socially and in terms of deck construction and play style) are a very valuable 'merit' to rank. It creates a new level of dynamism at the table. Joust style games are simple - it's you and another opponent and you try to punch each other in the face. Yet the current leader topic on this board about Baratheon Rush decks points out one of the best arguments for melee - you can't create a deck that's too powerful and rushes too fast, because you can't beat three other players acting in concert. You can't strike for the win until it's within your grasp. I think this adds a level of measure of competence and competitiveness that Joust lacks.

Now, you're a world champ and I'm still green behind the ears, but I'm not new to card games or competitive board game dynamics. I think Joust and Melee have equal strengths and measure different things, yet I think the claim that Joust is 'waaaaaaaaaaaay better than Melee' ignores one of the measures of competitiveness that can make Melee better than Joust.

First, in defense of Mathlete, it is just his opinion that Joust is recognized as the "only" champion. I've heard that opinion from other people, but at the end of the day both the Melee and Overall Champions get recognized and also get rewards from FFG. And isn't FFGs "stamp of approval" all that really matters? For instance, this past year at Gencon we had around 40+ players for both Joust and Melee. But there have been multiple European tournaments that far exceeded that number this past year, with Stahleck hitting 80 I believe! Shouldn't the champion of that event be the World Champion since there were more players and likely tougher competition? But that doesn't matter does it? Its all about the sanctioning by FFG. FFG has chosen to make the melee a viable format in the tournament scene. 2007 was the first year where there was a Melee world champ crowned at Gencon. 2008 was the first year there was an "overall" world champion where Melee was part of the criteria. It is, what it is.

Within our own meta, Zeiler gets recognized just as much for his 2010 Melee championship as I do for my Joust championships in 2004 and 2009. Granted, Zeiler never lets us forget and I'm a total jerk to everyone, so maybe there are reasons beyond meta-recognition of gametypes?

As for my personal opinion, I did not like Melee for the longest time when I first played this game. I remember the first Melee game that I played with Mathlete at a regional in Joplin in 2005 or 2006 and I swear the third person at the table never attacked Mathlete the entire game. Bruno just kept convincing him to attack me and he did exactly that challenge after challenge. It left a sour taste in my mouth. Interestingly, over time I've come to appreciate the nuances of Melee, and while I still don't enjoy it as much as joust, I respect it and value it for what it is. I've had a blast playing my last five Melee tournaments (Gencon '09, MN regionals '10, MO regionals '10, Gencon '10, Days of Ice and Fire '10) and I probably have more lasting, concrete memories from these games than I do my joust games. And I agree with the posters who have mentioned that it requires a completely different skill set to win in Melee. And honestly, it is a skill set rooted in social interaction. Good deck construction and smart play is still required, but there is a completely didn't side to it.

Jack: you're right, but don't waste your breath. 90% of these posters just can't get out of the head to head mindest they learned so long ago and don't aprpeciate hwo much mroe skill it takes to design and win with a melee deck. it remains the best representation of Martin's world and the more difficult intelelctual challenge.

This is why i think finitestarkwell is the finest player the game has ever seen. His abiltiy to master BOTH formats leaves me in awe of his skill and talent.

Citizenkeen: thank you for sharing, and welcome aboard. I wholly agree with your insightful comments and commend you on your clever screen name. Always good to tip the hat to old Welles.

When some one consistently wins at hi level, competitive melee, give me a call and we'll talk about this level of "more skill" I keep hearing about.

One can be good at melee. One can have all the required skills to win often. But I can show up with my pose, and your skill set means nothing. There is just so much that is out of your control.

A good way of determining who's the best at the game? Not so much. Fun, and representative of Westeros? Yes.

Deathjester26 said:

Its a different skill set, not more or less. Even the accumulation or recruitment of a posse requires a skill set.

And honestly, I've never thought of the winner of a large tournament as the best player. I've considered them the champion. Just like VCU might win the NCAA tournament but they aren't the "best" team. Mathlete even mentioned that he thought Nate French was the best player he ever played against even though he lost to Casey in the 2003 championships. And I can guarantee you that I wasn't the best player in 2004 despite my championship. Ranking systems are much better at determining who is the best at the game. Tournaments just crown a champion.

Dobbler said:

100% agree with everything you just said. I am certainly not the second best player out there, by a long shot!

To be crowned champion, both joust and melee require skill, along with a touch of luck, timing, favorable matchups etc. I do feel that the joust comes closer to representing the "best" player in joust, than the melee does in representing the "best" player in melee. Mostly because I think these factors have less influence in joust. That does NOT mean that I think one champion is any less deserving of their title than another. Mathlete's on his own defending that one.

And, while I agree that getting a posse together requires skill, I usually don't prefer games that reward such skills. Mostly, it's because I have no such abilities myself, but also because collusion and other tactics I find improper can become an issue. But, that's why I prefer competitive joust over competitive melee.

*shrug* I find equal value and fun in both, and generally don't take time out of my day to do more than tease Rings for disliking melee or Zeiler for winning it. But that's more because they're my friends and deserve to be ribbed. I certainly don't think it's worth the effort to berate fans of a particular format just for being fans of that format.

That said, I do wish that we had a formal ranking system like we used to have in the olden days. That would indeed be a much more accurate representation of who is the "best" player.

Stag Lord said:

Chuckle. Alright, if we want to be condesending, lets!

There was obvious table and player issues last year at Worlds/GenCon (friends telling each other to 'take' other players out between games), which even turned me off MORE from multi. If possible. Yeah, lots of skill. *roll*

~If we want to capture Westeros, we should bring swords and fight to the death, or put Tears of Lys (read: roofies) in each other's drinks! Then it would be SO COOL because it is so close to the books!

OR...we could play a game BASED on the books, that use skill in deckbuilding and strategy rather than relying on pre-existing relationships and the difference on how 'underhanded' some people are compared to others. I know everyone being on the same playing field isn't Westeros enough I guess, but it is the more fair...which is needed in games. Let's just say people love Diplomacy (like me), but I don't think any board game will have a pro tour ever. Fun vs. competative.

I am not (nor did anyone) say Multi is fun with the right people, although it CAN get tedious at times. It just isn't as much of a skill-based game *shrug* Also, I agree that it IS the best multi-player game I have ever played - other than maybe Vampire.

There is a reason that, before this whole 'combining to make a champion' thing happened, Joust outdrew Melee about 2 or 3:1. FFG is doing a good job supporting both, because it brings more players to the game.

~and yes, exhibit one will be Zeigler.

Dobbler said:

...ahhhhh....Good Times! Good Times!

Dobbler said:

Greg, I agree with this 100%. I was making the same comparison to VCU in my own head too. I was thinking the exact same thing as you (~especially the part about you not being the best player in 2004! hahaha j/k). Actually, since you're the only person with TWO Joust crowns, that makes you the best player in the history of this game in MY OPINION!

As for everyone else.....I did not write my original post to bash Melee. I do enjoy playing Melee, with a group of friends. I'm not excited about it in a tourney format. I also agree that Melee is a spot-on representation of the books. These were just MY OPINIONS. Everyone is entitled to their opions (~except Stag Lord; He's alwys wrong, especially when it comes to hockey!). Please don't take my opions personally or as an attack in any way. I did state that at the beginning of my original post,

Anyway....I'm looking forward to playing the game again and more importantly, playing with my friends again. Hopefully I'll be around and make some new ones.

Good Luck all!

Allow me to be one more voice who loves melee. I love Joust too but melee is my favorite.

rings said:

Take out as in if they play them try to make them lose, or take out as in Tanya Harding pipe to the knee?

Perhaps that is the difference between people that love melee and people that love joust, because as long as it is the former I think that is awesome. I have absolutely no problem with people making and breaking alliances or targeting people or having friends target people just for pissing them off. Thats what makes melee fun.