I am just curious, how compatible are these games? Is it possible to use them all to create a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay style adventuring group with a disparate set of character careers? For example, is it possible to play with a marine, a novice trying to become an inquisitor, and a merchant with strong sympathies to the empire, using these three games? Or, is each a completely separate game that only works when it is played on its own?

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are perfectly compatible, with the latter even including guidelines on how to incorporate DH characters into an RT game. The only difference here is that RT characters basically start on what would translate to level 5 for DH ones.

Deathwatch is an entirely different beast because not only are the characters more powerful (due to receiving flat x2 multiplicators on Toughness and Strength causing their bodies to be as durable as the armour they wear, and their bare fists to cause as much damage as an anti-tank weapon), their equipment and weapons have also received a notable buff, presumably to compensate for the aforementioned effects of their bare bodies (given that it would seem a little ridiculous if a Marine throwing a rock would cause more damage than if he'd shoot the target with his gun). On top of this comes a big package of unique talents and exclusive game mechanics not available to anyone else to make them even more powerful. Due to all this, I'd not recommend a crossover here unless you are willing to houserule a lot of stuff to make DH and RT careers seem useful - although Ascension rules supposedly still enable Psykers and Assassins to hold their own due to immensely powerful psychic powers for the Primaris and special equipment for the Vindicare, so it may depend heavily on the group and the focus of the campaign.

But if you do attempt a crossover with DW, you should keep in mind that, by the setting's very background, Marines are not meant to be balanced to normal people such as new characters in DH. An Inquisitor would have the means to procure the kind of equipment required to sort of "keep up" with an Astartes, but an Acolyte won't.

You could have the Marine's "slot" filled by other "more human" characters of a similar vocation, though, such as a Guardsman (keep in mind this career doesn't have to mean the character is in the Imperial Guard - it can also be used to play Feral World warriors, Feudal knights, or a noble's Household Militia).

Cool. Thanks. One more question, is there likely to be a new edition of the 40k version of the role-playing game (perhaps making it more like WFRPG3) any time soon, or is Dark Heresy, Death Watch, and Rogue Trader, likely to be the 40k itteration of the RPG for the foreseeable future?

EDIT: Actually, two more questions. Can someone give me a quick and dirty description of the mechanical differences between something like Hark Heresy and WFRPG3?

Depending on your mode of roleplaying and your players the games are either:

Rogue Trader + Dark Heresy = Great

Rogue Trader + Dark Heresy + Ascension = Doable/Good

Dark Heresy + Deathwatch = Iffy

Dark Heresy + Ascension + Deathwatch = Doable

Rogue Trader + Deathwatch = iffy/not good

Dark Heresy + Rogue Trader + Deathwatch = No go

Dark Heresy + Ascension + Rogue Trader + Deathwatch = Mindfuck

or....

Everything is fine and doable.

It all depends on why and how you play. The mindset of players and GM. If what you're looking to do is create a band of ultimate spacefaring adventurers, grouping together in the Emperor's name for profit, glory, power and piety then you can work everything into everything.

People worry about imbalance. I say leave imbalance where it belongs. In the computer games.

So what if your Rogue Trader captain can't take out a spacemarine devastator, did you really expect him to be able to?? Or did you assume for half a round that your Spacewolf Skyclaw: "Grom the grim; of brutal and grimy, muscely power" would be able to outdamage the Imperial Psykerlord specialized in telekinesis and pyromancy? No you didn't because if you did then you are a ******* freak! A freak with unrealistically high expectations or a freak who's only played starcraft since you were born and don't know that there existed such a thing as difference in strength. Or a lucky munchkin in a group of chronically unlucky statrollers.

IMO people drop the ball on this issue often, and that is NOT to say anything bad about Lynatas comment because she is right, but if you have a team that really want to make a ragtag buch of whatthefuck ever, then band the fuckers together and get rolling

The point is to have fun and get the story rolling. If the players colaborate they can make a group that will fit together.

So if your space-marine players wanna make a grimfaced noname every-man marine, who does not differ from any of the preset norms in the slightest, then perhaps it's going to be hard to keep the party together when the psyker learns his first arcana. But if you colaborate then any number of bizarre, even absurd, motivations, mental-issues, points of view and differences in philosophies and methods can work together in a gloriously messy, ragtag smart-fest that would make Tzeentch giggle in exitement at the mere prospect.

You can do anything man, you're the ones who are playing the game. Incorporating the rules and making them flow as fluidly and perfectly as a untouched mountain spring located in the platau of slickness on the planet vaseline is a feat that cannot be accomplished by anything short of a complete rewrite, so don't try it

Now, with regards to WFRPG.... hmmmm... most important difference is probably (as is usually the case with the ever-continuing struggle vs the forces of chaos) the rules on corruption.

In WFRPG corruption happened easier than it does in 40k. In the interest of making excuses, think of it as the difference between minds. In Fantasy humans easily succumb to chaos, while in 40k there is 10.000 years of brainwashing, inbreeding and constant sadistic, merciless indoctrination programmed into the subconscious of humanity as a species.

As such where formerly you'd get mutation like *fingersnap* that if you were exposed to chaos long enough, here you have to build it up in a pool of points, representing your soul and it's faltering defense against the influences of the dark powers.

In 40k whenever you do something that exposes you to the wickedness of chaos you roll a number of dice and add or substract a value, based on what seems appropriate. The player in question builds up a pool of corruption points and then, when he's ripe, he gets mutations, get shunned by society, hunted, inevitably turns evil and you get a new antagonist

I should note here that exposing oneself to the wickedness of chaos should be taken as: "Exposing oneself to the ******* wickedness of the warp-like chaosy cthulhu thingies that smells like pain and sourcream and spews pus that makes reality cry, wickedness, wicked, wickeddy wicked, corrupt stuff." In other words, situations where you expose your character

a) Involuntarily to the warp or it's denizens

or b) voluntarily taking part in chaosy things, with the intention of being bad and nasty

Gamemasters who spew corruptionpoints like they spew garbage gives me the willies. I have a very competent GM at the moment, who, despite him being rather talented, gave our Moritat reaper corruption points for severing a guys foot, to keep him from running away while the MR made a phonecall. No attempts at dissuading worked and our moritat got corruption points for being a morbid, remorseless, efficienct killer.... you know, the thing they are supposed to be... for the emperor and all that.

If I find out you do that, then I don't care if I don't know who you are or where you live, I will find you somehow and hit you in the stomach with a saucepan. .... and then we'll probably go out for hotdogs or something... BUT the saucepan thing will hurt!! ÒxÓ

Other mechanics off the top of my head......

hmmm

.... oh right!! You can't aim a melee attack in 40k. That is... you can still call your target, saying "I'm gonna cut his face off and wear it like a hockey mask", but you can no longer use the Aim-action to get a bonus to melee.

Having played fantasy you're probably used to 3 degrees of succes being the textbook example of maximum attainable succes. Well it's not in 40k. There is a whole bunch of degrees of succes to be had in this game. Like the universe, everyting is more large-scale in space.

There is no godly powers for the good guys. The clerics can't cast spells or anything like Fantasy. Like fantasy the good guys use the same magic as the baddies, but they don't call it "a different wind of magic". Instead everyone just calls any and all casters "witch" or some equally insulting slur, at least when they are not looking and listening, and just sorta accepts that SOME witches play for the winning team. The only thing that reminds us of "good" godly powers are the Pure-faith traits that most Adepta Sororitas, and a few priests get. It's not so much divine magic as it is determination so stubborn, that the universe really has no other choice but to grant the sororitas in question SOMETHING, for fear of her kicking it's ass if it doesn't.

No I'm just playing, the idea is of course that the mighty god-emperor of earth has enough power from his dubious feeding habits, and millions of billions of screaming fanatics, that it has to manifest in some way other than a giant, intergalactic bug-zapper.

I can't think of anything else, but if I do, I'll be back

Nearyn said:

You know, having read about the Orks' Waaagh-field and given how Acts of Faith work for the humans in 40k, I do consider it a funny theory that such miracles could be the result of a similar effect as the one that makes "da red unz go fasta" for Orks. A sufficient mass of crazy people believes it to be true, and so it happens. After all, in the Tabletop, the efficiency of Acts of Faith does depend on squad size...

As for the "balance" thing - yes, perhaps my judgement was a bit harsh. Characters do not explicitly need to be balanced in terms of game mechanics to make sense or provide a fun game. Given your example with a Rogue Trader, for example, the campaign could involve a bunch of Marines travelling on the Trader's ship - which does actually happen in the fluff, from time to time. The Rogue Trader would not nearly be as good in combat as the Marines, but he has a cruiser full of people and the resources to shape the face of an entire Subsector.

The only problem I would see here is that the "spotlights" on the various characters would lie so far apart, the Rogue Trader only able to shine in ship-based combat, social interactions or economy, whereas the Marines are literally just made for fighting. Other combat-centric careers may also feel pushed aside, given that even in the area they are supposed to shine they will remain forever in the shadows. Regardless of the situation, you'll always have someone feel useless at any given time.

A really good GM might come up with a campaign and a way to keep the focus bouncing back and forth with sufficient speed to keep everyone happy, but as such an effect would be highly circumstantial it is not really a reliable projection. It also depends a lot on the players, their mindset, and what kind of characters they want to play. So perhaps I should reword my previous statement and simply say that it's just ... "difficult".

My rogue trader can easily take out a space marine.

Orbital Bombardment

Who says rogue traders have to fight fair?

More seriously, the main reason Marines are hard to include in any other game is that they don't work well with others (RP-wise). They have enough trouble trusting battle-brothers from a different chapter.

I am starting to get a feel for the three games, and whether they are for me or not, but I am still at a loss as to the difference between the three 40k games and WFRPG3. I get the feeling that the comparisons that Nearyn laid out are between 2e WFRPG and the three 40k games. I have never played the 2 WFRPG. I am looking for the differences between the 3e version and the 40k games (which I hear are closer to the 2e version of WFRPG). Also, has there been any indications that FF is likely to release a new edition of the 40k games that is closer to the 3e version of WFRPG in the future (I don't want to buy into a new RPG only to have a new edition come out shortly after). Another important question that I just thought of, are the games balanced in and of themselves? IE: Are character choices in Dark Heresy fairly balanced against each other? Are character choices in Rogue Trader fairly balanced against each other? How about in Death Watch? I don't necessarily mean everyone being equally good in combat. I mean, rather, can every character mechanically shine in at least one major mechanical area of the game (thus contributing meaningfully to the party's set of group mechanical capabilities)?

I think it's safe to say that the RPG won't go into a 2nd Edition that quickly - though I do hope it will eventually happen, given that there are a few things I'd love to see corrected (both wonky mechanics as well as fluff deviations). They are still releasing and announcing new supplements even for Dark Heresy ("Daemon Hunter" and "Only War" are being worked on right now), which is the oldest of the games, so in my opinion you have no need to shy from a purchase.

As for the balance ... mmyyyyeees, in a way every career is balanced towards another in terms of "stuff to do" and being useful, though there are some that stick out as "potentially problematic":

In Dark Heresy you have the Battle Sister from Blood of Martyrs that (as per the RAW) begins play with power armour and boltgun, which are immensely powerful tools that, whilst not affecting everyone, could easily let other combat-centric characters look bad - this situation turns around later in the game when the Sister will be crap because of missing talents and skills, whereas other characters will have upgraded their gear to a comparable level. Players are able to gloss over both of these deficiencies with just roleplaying appropriate restrictions and advantages or clever use of houserules and a good GM looking out for everyone, though. The fact that even Dark Heresy isn't all about combat and every career can shine somewhere makes things easy. Ascension has been criticized for taking things "over the top", but due to lack of experience I cannot go into detail that much - plus, Ascension only matters when your players want to progress past the initial 8 ranks.

In Deathwatch this gets a bit more problematic because it's almost all about fights and every career is a combat-centric one. If you check out the DW forums you will see a lot of threads about the Devastator and his heavy bolter literally allowing everyone else to just take a step back and watch. This, too, can be sort-of dealt with by a good GM that knows what kind of opponents to toss at his players, and even though this doesn't make the Devastator less pwning it does at least give everyone something to do, which is the truly important thing. You can still just have a good time.

Rogue Trader is perhaps the easiest game in this regard, simply because every character does not only act for himself but also has lots of responsibility attached to his station. There's always something to do, regardless of whether it's on the bridge of a ship, on a newly founded colony, during the exploration of an unknown world or when negotiating a deal.

Tl;dr: Yes, in themselves the games are fairly balanced and even strict non-combat careers such as the Adept are immensely useful (often enough, knowledge really is the key). There are a few underlying issues, but none that make anything unplayable or unfun by default.

@ deinol: Good call, I didn't think of that.

Nearyn said:

I think you might be mistaken here, unless I'm the one who's mistaken. In DH and RT, I'm fairly certain you can aim a melee attack. The first sentence of the aim action discription: "You may take extra time to set up a melee or ranged attack to increase the chance to hit." I don't know about DW so i can't say if you can or not in that one.

Just wanted to correct that little point as the rest seems dead on.

Cyber-Dave said:

First, yes the differences he's laid out are to 2nd ed. WFRPG and, yes again, the 40k games are much closer to 2nd ed WFRPG then 3rd ed from what I understand -both lines (pre 3rd ed) are built from the same rule structure, only mutated a bit. I really don't know anything about 3e WFRPG so I can't help you with any comparisons there however.

Likewise, I don't think there will be a brand spanking new edition which invalidates the previous material for the 40k line out any time soon. While FFG dose show signs of taking the rules in a different direction then BI had set, it will probably be a slow process and, in the end, not a complete overhaul of the rules, just tweaking and changing, mostly through releasing different games all together (such as Black Crusade). Of course, since I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, this is just idle speculation at best.

As for internal balance, yes, the various character choices are indeed reasonably balanced with one another, about as much as most any TT game. Sure certain types of characters can **** the system when there's a suitable munchkin at the helm but that's par for the course of most any game and really can't or shouldn't be helped on the game's end. You just run into problems when you start over mixing the three games, especially DW with any of the others as illustrated above.

Cyber-Dave said:

I've only played a little WFRPG 3e but I've seen alot of reviews and watched others play, and off the top of my head I don't think there's even one mechanic that's similar between it and any of the 40k RPGs. There's no cards or different dice, just a couple sets of d10's. Combat works completely different and tends to be fast and bloody, with critical hits permanently maiming characters, especially in Dark Heresy.

My own thoughts on the matter are that DH + Ascension can certainly work with Deathwatch (Especially using Rites of Battle to help with Psy powers)...

But Rogue Trader is this odd little beast that exists outside of the mileau, it needs a book to add both the first 4 ranks, and one to add the last 4 to make it compatible with either. Because as it stands now, it can work with mid-lategame DH, or Early-mid DW and Ascension. But nothing in the surrounding areas.

Honestly, I think the best thing FFG could release once Black Crusade is out (because that promises to really throw things for a loop) is a book to give rules for 'blending' them all. Dedicated to how to mix play at all levels. How can you Create a Marine and play your character from before his selection on until being sent to the Deathwatch?

How can you play a Rogue Trader and his Buddies before they 'mini-ascend' to their RT archetypes. (Or put another way, how can we use DH or the upcoming BC to get our characters to the point of becoming RTs and Company!), what can RTs become after their rank 8? What sort of options exist to segue them into mid-late game Deathwatch and Ascension sorts of things?

Not to mention some sort of unified rules for everything else such as Psychic powers and other things.

Heck, might even make some business sense. It isn't necessary for some players, but all us line completists desperately buying everything for it? It would be a godsend.

Not to pick a fight or anything but from what I know, have not played it, WFRPG 3 is closer to a glorified boardgame with a lot of talking vs a traditional pen and paper RPG. Unlike WFRPG 3 where $100 gets you a 4 player game, one 40K book, two ten sided dice, some paper and a pencil and you can have a game with 15 people, although more dice and pencils are always handy.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Having played RPGs for the last 20 years, and having just bought and tried a few games of WFRPG3, I can tell you that what you "know" is wrong. WFRPG is a game that has a strong focus on narration, telling a group story, and roleplaying a character--it is the very definition of a role playing game. There is very little about it that is like a boardgame, glorified or otherwise--the game does not make use of a board. If you really wanted to play WFRPG 3 without any bits you could do so by just buying the 3 core guides and some WFRPG dice. But, playing a game with bits doesn't make it any less of an RPG if its focus is on narration, telling a group story, and roleplaying a character. Bits simply make it easier to keep track of the game during play. And honestly, over the years many RPG players have used bits in RPG games, some of which required them, and others which did not. Indeed, I can't think of a single RPG I have played in which no bits were ever used by my group to make our lives easier (even if the rules did not explicitly call for the use of any particular bit, and even though I had never heard the term "bit" until a couple of weeks ago).

To everyone else, thank you very much for your feedback. It has been very helpful.

Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader rule system and gear levels are pretty equal, with the exception of Rogue Traders being insanely rich. But that is more a "story" setup than a rule per se.

When it comes to xp progression you will find that the "levelling" speed are out of sync between the two systems, so if your group is going to have players with careers from both systems and the players care about equal progression you will probably want to run the Rogue Traders on a get double xp reward system or half their costs or something like that to keep it simple.... or even redesign the career progression to match each others.

I think the Ascension rules are not balanced by themselves.
The Vindicare for example fits much better in DW than in DH+A if you ask me.

So how good it's possible to mix the systems depends mainly on what exactly you want to mix.

The Ascended Sage is too OP on skills for DW but is just a noncombatant compared to marines. So he's at the same time to strong and too weak because he is too different.

General question about mixing the games up. In Deathwatch some monsters get Shadow in the Warp trait which lowers psychic powers by -20% chance how would you equate that to dark heresy rules if they were to fight that same type of Tyranid?

nethru said:

I would say force a -20% WP test every time they try to use a power. If they fail the test they can't use a power that round.

ItsUncertainWho said:

I was thinking of doing add 4 to threshold for every -5% in deathwatch so -20% would be +16 to threshold to activate a skill. Since using powers is so different in the two games. An ascended psyker will have 5-6 dice pool so even a +16 to threshold if they do unfettered power still have very good chance with high willpower.