yeah i posted that a little fast last night. The Russians should enter the board on round 1. the Germans should start with the Initiative. and the AT gun should be able to set up on the hill inside the entrenchment with it's attending squad. i would add more mines but there are counters for only 6 so i used them all. if you think adding a 3rd pack 40 will help go ahead but if you do that please post the results of that game.

by the way this is a unofficial change.

BJaffe01

Patate said:

Patate said:

Don't know. Have to play it first. Don't want to shift te balance too much to the Germans'favour either...

BJaffe01 said:

Since you're the scenario's designer it's offcial enough for me!

I guess I'll simply use memoir 44 minefields. There are many more of those. Of course you could just tell people to use a coin or any kind of item, basically...a German ammunition specialisation token for example...

When balancing a scenario it's usually better to add 1 or 2 changes instead of everything you can think of all at once. This way you get a much better idea of how each of these changes effect the balance. Change too much at once and it's easy to lose track of overshooting your goal without any idea of what went wrong.

IMHO the best choice would be to start with:

- having the Soviets start off board (this allows the Germans a proper round of defensive firing)

- allow the AT-Gun to deploy on the entrenched hill (so it can actually be used as intended)

- complete the AT defenses with either another minefield or tank obstacle (to force the Soviets to go through the defenses instead of around)

Together this goes a long way in making the scenario act the way it should: the defenders can shoot at the advancing attackers, the attackers have to smash through a defensive line. Once that has been tested it will soon become obvious if one side is still too strong.

Yes! I agree very much with the tank-obsticle solution. place 2-3 tank obsticles through the mine-free route. That would make it a pain to move through that spot. You can do it, but it will take a long time. and you can only move two tanks through at any one time. Sidenote: Can a tank-obsticle be placed in addition to birbed wire?

Having the russians move onto the table is ofcourse helpfull. But still, the german infanteri still has a hard time actually doing damage to the russian tanks.

I think i will start with the russians entering the board on round 1 and allowing placement in the entrenchment. I don't see how the germans having the initiative at the start would help at all as there would be no russians on the board when the game starts.

well you may be right on the initiative change but play it with the Germans having it at start and see how that affects things the other changes are shurley needed.

BJaffe01

BJaffe01 said:

Agreed. I don't see the use of the Germans starting with the initiative either. Having the Soviets move onto the board already accomplishes the goal that the Germans get actually do something before having their main units removed from play without getting to fire a shot.

BTW, do the Russians HAVE TO move (all of ) their units onto the board on turn 1 or can they withhold some or all of them until later turns??

Kingtiger said:

Do you mean round or turn?

I think it is in the rules (or the original scenario guide) or the FAQ that troops who cannot arrive on schedule are lost. But I see no reason why this could not be allowed in a scenario.

If you mean turns, then I would imagine that you move units onto the board as they (or their transports) are activated. So, a maximum of three units (possibly loaded with passengers) arrive per action turn.

KlausFritsch said:

I mean rounds.

After doing a few test-runs with the new set-up (PAK on the hill, Soviets start off-board, no hole in the defensive line) the Germans still get slapped around without any chance of posing a realistic threat to an easy Soviet Victory. And what's more, I don't see how any other minor change or house-rule can fix this problem:

- The PAK is now able to fire at least one op-fire shot on the advancing Soviet tanks. Small detail, that one shot will most likely just score 1 (or 2 if you're lucky) hits which results in one tank with light damage. The Soviets now have 4 chances (2 KV-1's and 2 T-34's) to advance within range of the PAK and shoot back with 4 attack v. 3 defence dice. Feel free to do the math (I'm too lazy to do it because the result is obvious anyway) ... the PAK is destroyed. Should the God of Dice smile upon you and the PAK survives, next turn the Soviets will win initiative and get another 3 chances with 8 attack v. 3 defence dice. I think it's safe to say that the PAK will on average just cause light damage to one Soviet tank, and heavy damage if you're very lucky.

(Please note that the Soviets also have a reasonable chance of silencing the PAK before it can fire any shot at all with their heavy mortar support ... which doesn't drift so can be used will all Soviet units are still off-board.)

- Meanwhile the Soviets have 4 chances (4 SU-122's) to silence the MG-positions with 5 attack v. 4 defence dice ... and of course another round after winning initiative with 10 attack v. 4 defence dice. The chances of German MG's surviving and actually shooting at Soviet Infantry and doing something useful are about as big that of a Snowball in a CAT-scan ... they both end with a Big Bang!

In just 1 round the German defenders have been downgraded from "defensive line" to "sitting ducks" at the cost of a few dents on one Soviet tank. Moving through the fixed defences will cost the Soviets a few more rounds, but there's nothing the Germans can do about it ... the only thing they can do during this part of the scenario is getting shot at. I'm guessing that the final part of the scenario is pretty much the same, minus the fixed defences so it will be even faster.

Historical sidenote: I'm not sure which part of the Orel counter-offensive is, but judging by the dense German fixed defences it's the one on the eastern side of the Orel bulge. At that part of the front the Germans were expecting the Soviet attack and managed to halt the Soviet initial assault causing heavy losses. This forced the Soviets to push their mechanized forces (meant for the breakthrough) into the assault as well ... again with heavy losses due to well-positioned PAK's

... but that's quite the opposite of what I'm seeing in this scenario.

[

BTW, do the Russians HAVE TO move (all of ) their units onto the board on turn 1 or can they withhold some or all of them until later turns??

Why? There is no point in creeping around with such a numerical advantage. has anyone tried playing with the germans using the tank buster deck from Normandy?

The Hungarian said:

It's a nice deck to even the odds between soldiers and vehicles, but wouldn't work without additional changes to this scenario. During the first round the cards can't be used due to lack of command points and the Soviets will have defeated the first (and main) German line of defence at the start of turn two. The remaining German defenders will be stuck in their trenches while under heavy fire from the Soviet tanks ... and they will not last long.

After that there's just a lot of open terrain ... very good tank-country, but not so good when you're a soldier trying to sneak-up on a tank.

so Latro even adding another pack 40 to front defense line wouldn't help?

i would like to see more feedback from others. sadly this scenario played out much better intially

BJaffe01

Bill when I get a chance (hopefully soon) I will play this out against a friend of mine and I will use the changes of allowing setup on the entrenchment and russians enter on round one then keep everything else the same. Once I have played I will post a session report of how it went ( will try and do 2 games so we get to play both sides)

Even with these changes I would think it would still be a challege for the germans, but in my opion it should be.

Aussie_Digger said:

* 3xPAK (set up allowed in trenches; scenario special rule)

* 1x 88 (Set up allowed in trenches; scenario special rule)

* Soviets enter the board on turn 1.

* Defensive line is filled with another minefield or tank obstacle (I'd go for the minefield myself).

Judging by Latro's write-up this would be what's required at the very least to give the Germans a fighting chance without changing the Soviet line-up. What's more it might better resemble the historical outcome as described by Latro.

Bill, could you explain how it turned out differently during playtesting then? I'm sure it did, but I find it really hard to imagine how...

Kingtiger:

My geuss is that the russians drove all their tanks through an operative minefieild. That will for sure inlict heavy damage. Approximatly 1/4 of all tanks moving through would be heavily damaged, and the rest would be lightly damaged

Also, a scenario for FoB cannot include elements from Days of the Fox, at least not oficially. But the only solution is to add more anti tank capabilities for the germans. Even some bazooka's in the trenches should help.

I'll be moving tomorrow, so afterwards I can finaly get FoB. So, what about the other scenarios? What scenario is the most fun?

BJaffe01 said:

Probably not.

The most likely result would be one heavily damaged Soviet tank, or even destroyed if the dice favour you. After that the Soviets still have more than enough mechanized firepower to silence the German PAK's during the first round or the start of the second if the dice favout the Germans even more ... because the Soviets still win initiative. So the worst case scenario (within reasonable odds) for the soviets would be one destroyed tank and an extra round delay to start clearing the minefields/obstacles ... which doesn't really matter because the Germans have nothing that can take advantage of that extra round and the Soviets have more than enough time to reach the objectives anyway.

Possible fixes:

- Add a lot more PAK's and house-rule them so that they can be used by squads in trenches (see Kingtiger's suggestion), but this would also need another house-rule to give the PAK's a much better cover bonus when operated in a trench hex ... else they will simply get blown away again.

- Change the deployment so that PAK's can use their superiour range. This way they can fire at the Soviet tank with normal range while they try to break the defensive line, but are at long range if they Soviets try to return fire. Just two PAK's in such positions providing covering fire for the forward defenders can be very annoying for the Soviets.

- Give the Germans access to the Tank Buster deck (Normandy expansion) or if stuff from other expansions can't be used, give them a few AT-specializations and the option to deploy those in the balka as a reserve (for example).

- Change 2 SU-122's to 2 T-34's, because the firepower of those SU's will rip those trenches to shreds. The T-34's should be the most numerous anyway, so that even makes it more historical as well!

- Change the Command Point allocation so that both sides start with an equal number of points to spend (or a slight German advantage), the Soviets should gain the upper hand once they have breached the first defensive line and control certain points there.

I'll try a few of them this afternoon and see what happens.

Okay, without any thorough testing (yet), here is an alternative set-up:

Soviets: remove strategy deck Supply I

Germans: add strategy deck Supply I, add 1 AT-specialization token to division 1, division 1 can deploy in any trench/entrenchment/balka hex on map 35B/31B

Map:

The Razor Wire on the edge of map 12A/31B becomes a Tank Obstacle.

The Tank Obstacle on map 35B is placed on the road directly in front of the bridge on map 4A.

Place 2 entrenchments on the edge of maps 35B/3A and 31B/6B, one per hex directly left and right from the middle.

Remove the middle Soviet Command Point token.

Any comments are ofcourse very welcome!

Latro said:

I really really REALLY wish they would add an edit function ...

Anyway, I forgot:

Remove 2 SU-122's, add 2 T-34's for the Soviets.

Latro said:

... and add a second PAK 40 for the Germans in division 1.

Latro said:

I second that! (an edit button you can see and which dont dissapear after 3s...)

Kingtiger said:

I would put that 88 in the second line. With its massive attack and good range, that should be fun.

They really need to put out a separate, updated and all-inclusive rulebook and then flank that with boxes of plastic and scenario-only books packaged together with a few juicy overlays (using all available components).

It is annoying that you cannot use 88s in Russia and no PAK 40 in the desert or any gun in Normandy, of all places.

Trenches in North Africa would also be essential for Alamein or the Mareth line. Including fortified gun pits, of course.

Where does it say that you cannot use units from other expansions in scenarios? I've never heard about that?! Anyway, it might actually stimulate people to go and buy such expansions, so I don't really see anything wrong with it.

Kingtiger said:

Makes sense though ... else the box would have to say: "You also need the Base set, Days of the Fox expansion and Normandy expansion to play this game". Keeping the rather steep prices in mind, that would chase potential buyers away, not invite them to buy it. It might not matter for a veteran player of the game who will have all previous sets anyway (double, for extra playing pieces), but for new buyers? ... don't think so.

Something like the Designer Series scenarios ... now those can mix and match all they want!