In one of the designer diary's before Battlefleet Koronus came out I read a comparison between Grand Cruisers and Battle Cruisers and it said that Battle Cruisers were more for the Traders Militant who are heavy into fighting, whereas Grand Cruisers while maintaining impressive armament and armor to make them worthy warships would also be good for those who want to do more than just fight. Since my Rogue Trader group and I are of the opinion that if all we wanted to do was just fight we would have joined the Imperial Navy, when I finally got my own copy of Battlefleet Koronus I went looking through the Grand Cruiser hulls and found what I thought was the perfect ship for our group, the Repulsive -class Grand Cruiser (I was the member of the group assigned to the procurement of a ship and its outfitting).

In terms of weapons it had everything I was looking for. A prow slot for torpedo tubes, port and starboard slots for massive macrocannon broadsides, and a dorsal slot for long range lance batteries to work over the enemy. Then I noticed the problem. Due to an experimental warp drive installed on the Repulsive -class that none of the geniuses in the Adeptus Mechanicus thought to remove or make removable, there is a -10 penalty to all Navigation tests made by the Navigator during warp travel.

My group has mainly played Dark Heresy but inspired by the tales of the Spanish conquistadores in the conquest of the New World and given that we decided to put an Ascension -level Ordo Malleus campaign on the backburner until Daemon Hunters came out we decided to give Rogue Trader a whirl. Seeing how relatively inexperienced we are at Rogue Trader (although I have played Battlefleet Gothic which seems to be the basis of Rogue Traders space combat rules) I'd like the more experienced players for their analysis of the Repulsive -class Grand Cruiser.

I'd also like to ask for suggestions on weapons loadouts if my group does indeed decide to go with a Repulsive -class. For the Torpedo Tubes I've been considering the Gryphonne-class as its four torpedo tubes is exactly the same amount as that carried by the U.S. Navy's Los Angeles -class nuclear attack submarine, although if those reading this have a better suggestion I'm all ears. In terms of starboard and port broadsides the dizzying array of macrobattery choices has left me clueless as what to choose but since both the port and starboard have two slots I was thinking of a medium ranged macrocannon broadside taking up one of the slots on both sides, and something shorter ranged but packing more punch occupying the second slot in case our intrepid band of Explorers runs into one of an Imperial Navy officer's worst nightmares, the close ranged (by Imperial Navy standards) broadside firefight. While there aren't quite as many choices concerning lances I'd still like to hear suggestions on what kind of lance to put in the dorsal mount. From Battlefleet Gothic I know that whereas a macrocannon broadside is comparable to a carpet bombing by a B-52, a lance strike is more like a precision-guided airstrike (in American Air Force terminology). My experiences from Battlefleet Gothic ( which were also confirmed in the Battlefleet Koronus sourcebook) are that you strip down the shields of an enemy ship using the mass saturation broadsides of the much quicker firing but less destructive macrocannons and then proceed to gut the enemy ship using the slower firing but much more destructive and longer ranged dorsal lances. So could someone advise me as to which lance turret to use?

Finally, could someone tell me whether what I read about in the designer diary about Grand Cruisers being suited for exploration and trade and other activities besides war are true? My group and I are looking forward to getting into the Cold Trade and muscling in on the nephium mining (negating any advantages Chorda and Winterscale have by getting Ecclesiarchial support via a special deal to sell the majority of the nephium mined to the Ecclesiarchy at a "special" discount price which those pyromaniacal clergymen and Battle Sisters would love perhaps?). So if it turns out that Grand Cruisers really aren't cut out for "special" delivery runs of xenos artifacts and nephium for those fire-eating battle nuns and other high value cargoes and are more for charging through the middle of a Chaos fleet I'd like to know.

Grand Cruisers are roomy enough to put a wide variety of stuff into them, but they are not usually seen as a solo vessel. Cruisers are best when escorted by other vessels, and a Grand Cruiser really pushes this even further. If nothing else, having a Grand Cruiser without any supporting squadron will attract attention, and that's not always a good thing. I'd also recommend taking launch bays in half of your port/starboard mounts if you do go solo as the attack craft can help to cover your weak spots. For the other port/starboard mounts, try to get a pair of Hecutor-pattern Plasma Broadsides for the excellent range and average damage combination.

How are you acquiring the ship? Has the GM given you a SP limit to work with?

If you have a PC Navigator, then the -10 to Warp Navigation rolls isn't really something you need to worry about. Once the Navigator gets to rank 4-5 you'll barely notice a 10-point modifier.

The Repulsive-Class Grand Cruiser is, in my estimation, one of the finest vessels a Rogue Trader could have. It can be made as powerful as a dedicated military Cruiser built for pure combat while still having large amounts of space left over for other functions- the Jack-of-all-Trades that can still hold it's own in combat.

The problem is the cost. Simply put, even with the maximum starting SP from the Warrant paths, you'd barely be able to afford a functional ship. Most of it would be empty space and unused power. Starting groups can struggle to properly outfit a Cruiser or even Light Cruiser. A Grand Cruiser? Forget it.

So, if you started with a Grand Cruiser, then eventually you'd get a wonderful ship, but for the start of the campaign you'd be stuck with a sub-standard one. Worse, many factions would just try to seize the ship from you since it's clear the vessel can't properly defend itself and they'd definitely want to have it themselves.

In short, unless your GM is willing to bend the rules and give you more SP than you should have, you're better off getting a Frigate or Light Cruiser to start with and putting the Repulsive-Class on your Wish List to dream about owning maybe one day. If you do get the bonus SP, accept that you're playing a munchkin game, take the ship before the GM comes to his senses, and then go enjoy it to the full!

Actually our group voted to use the expanded rules governing the Warrant Path from Into the Storm . I can't remember exactly which choices we made but I do remember we ended up with an absurd amount of SP and I can't remember our profit factor (was not as impressive as our SP though). I can find my copy of what we picked and give you the numbers if you want though.

I do know from Battlefleet Gothic that ships of that size are always escorted, but the Imperial Navy and Chaos Fleets have the budgets (or whatever the Chaos equivalent is) to maintain escort fleets. However, since a Rogue Trader dynasty is lucky to even get a grand cruiser and given the massive amount of cash it takes to operate the thing I doubt that we'd have enough left over to buy an escort flotilla. I don't know do you guys think its viable for a Grand Cruiser to go solo (and run for the hills as fast as her plasma and warp engines can if she runs into something she can't handle)? Or should we just go for the light cruiser if we want the whole "one ship" experience?

Also can I get more suggestions about armament. Like the best short ranged broadsides and macrocannon broadsides and dorsal lances? I'd like to keep my options open (I am considering the plasma broadsides I've just always got a kick out of imagining a broadside of city block-sized shells roaring into an enemy ship). To the suggestion that I install flight decks I was kind of hoping for the "guns blazing" battleship and not the space version of an aircraft carrier. I just don't feel comfortable with my whole understanding of rules and pros and cons of attack craft. What if I have to cut and run? That's a dilemma considering how expensive the attack craft and pilots are. Still I'm open to it if I someone can tell me why it'd be better to have them. I'll also go over the idea with my group members though I'm the one who probably understands the attack craft rules the best.

Keep up the suggestions though.

So let me get this straight. Even with the rather impressive amount of SP we generated during the Warrant process, my group would basically arrive at Port Wrath or wherever the grand cruiser was mothballed and find out that they have no means of outfitting the ship after the Navy stripped everything that wasn't nailed down? That's wonderful. Actually the story we were thinking of going with was the son of a prominent dynasty who just inherited the Warrant and ship of his dad who just kicked the bucket. That's how we were going to explain the starting level group with the grand cruiser.

I'll discuss with the group possibly starting off more experienced Explorer's but we kind of wanted that first level experience. Is there anyway we can start off with the Repulsive -class and have it outfitted while staying in the rules?

Carnage1138 said:

If you go with beginning characters and strictly by-the-book, you might stretch out to 80 SP or so if you include a few characters with Child of Dynasty. However, if your group wants to play with something bigger, then start with higher Rank characters (I suggest Rank 3 or 4) and grab up an extra 20-30 points to spend between SP and PF. There's no reason your group has to be newbies if that's not what's desired.

Considering that groups get attached to their ship and are unlikely to upgrade out of their frigate after a good deal of time spent playing I'm going to offer my players a Repulsive Class Grand Cruiser with a SP discount due to damaged or destroyed components and make the repair and upgrading of the ship part of the first half dozen endeavours so it gradually levels up into its full glory.

I also love the design of the Repulsive and I'd say it can make a very effective gun platform if you want, decide between long range and short range and build your strategy around that.

Carnage1138 said:

A tricked out Dauntless -CL will cost you around 70SP. With even the cheapest guns and a minimal interior, a Repulsive is going to be up around 80SP. I dont really want to think about what an stock Repulsive would cost, much less a tricked out one.

Apparently the ship got its name from the guy who was asked to comment about the cost of the ship.....

The game is really designed to have you start out with a Frigate, or maybe a CL, not a massive light Battleship.

Oh I know what you're supposed to start out with. Its just that we weren't going to be representing a newly established RT dynasty but one thats been around for a long time and therefore when the current heir stepped into Dad's shoes they'd already gotten a Grand Cruiser a long time ago.

Its nice to know that the Repulsive -class can serve as a good gunboat. In response to the question of what was I thinking of mounting I do believe I said that ideally I was thinking prow torpedoes of the Gryphonne-pattern, macrocannons taking up one of the two slots on the port and starboard (still would like somebody to suggest which type is best for medium range), and the second slots on the port and starboard consisting of something more powerful but with less range than a macrocannon broadside for close-in firefights (would also appreciate suggestions as to that), and finally dorsal mounted lances for long range work and for gutting enemy ships after the macrocannons bring down their shields (suggestions for model type also appreciated). I've always liked the good all-rounder which is capable of fighting at all ranges though it might not be the best at any of them.

Carnage1138 said:

The Sunsear is the best all around macrobattery IMO, good range, good crit, and good strength. Into the Storm introduces the broadsides so they would make a very powerful addition to your ship's arsenal.

I'm biased towards attack crafts so I will suggest 2 landing bays with equal compliments of fury and starhawk, and 2 squadron of shark if you want. The flexibility of attack crafts can mean a 360 degree arc of attack and increased ability to intercept a variety of enemies, as well as engage planetary targets with precision. However if you do want to invest in landing bays, I suggest taking a flight bridge, pilot chambers, AND small craft repair bay. It seems like a lot to invest but it'll make your attack crafts very durable and powerful in the long run. And IMO, pilot chambers isn't a lot to invest in and small craft repair bay can be used for other things like shuttles and what nots your group might have.

Torpedo wise gryphonne pattern is a good start. You aren't going to hit with more than 4 torpedoes generally anyways and the rest will just sail on by an enemy and probably go off the map so to speak. However, if your GM allows, any torpedo that runs out of fuel can be retrieved after combat to be reused later.

Dorsal lance is good. I recommend the sunhammer or godsbane.

I would also recommend a prow lance too, either sunhammer or godsbane, since you can fire in a 180 degree arc from front left to right also. Since you can't mount any armored prow due to ancient grand cruiser rule (which armored prow is really the best pair with torpedoes IMO), You might as well do lances as an alternative.

Lastly, do not forget about good and best quality componets, it'll save space or increase damage to your lances and macrobatteries should you have the SP left to invest in them.

Hope this helps in your decision.

"Against a large attack force without support, Arsenal is nothing more than a gigantic coffin"

if anyone gets this, I like you ^^

Any suggestions as to a good shorter-ranged more powerful broadside for close-in firefights?

Carnage1138 said:

There aren't any short ranged broadsides that are good. All the good broadsides have long ranges, like the Sunsear and Hecutor.

You're mostly left with macrobatteries and the best short ranged in that category are bombardment cannons. Very good crit, impressive damage, but only strength 3. However, you'll crit pretty much from every volley.

Alternatively, if your GM allows you, you can convert the Pyros Melta Macrobattery to a Macrobroadside.

Oh. Double the Sunsears then!

Bombardment Cannons require a Dorsal, Keel, or Prow mounting so they're out for the short range broadsides. The Lathe-pattern Grav-Culverin Broadside is fairly nice for the option of switching up Range for Damage on the fly. Sunsear Las Broadside is nice too, but pretty power hungry.

I don't own the book yet (curse you pay-day!) and I'm not after stats, but is the Repulsive the only grand cruiser in the book? Ideally, is the Exorcist class in there?

As for a gun loud out for the repulsive, go for all your suplemental components first. With all those slots you mentioned, I am sure that it would be hard to design a ship that couldn't "whup-arse" if need be. Battery heavy with a few bays would be my pick. Big ship needs to cover it's exhaust pipe somehow.

Hygric said:

I don't have the book to hand, but the Repulsive is certainly not the only Grand Cruiser in BFK. I'm pretty certain the Exorcist is in there, yes. I think it's Repulsive, Vengeance, Exorcist, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong!

I love the Repulsive class. I even like the name, even though it's repulsive! I really like the miniature, and there's something about the title "Grand Cruiser" that is so much... cooler ...than either a Battleship or a Cruiser.

Unless something have changed Lances are always a bad choice compared to Macrobatteries. There was a nice Thread on these forums a while back explaining this.

Lightbringer said:

The grand cruisers in the book are Avenger -class, Repulsive -class, and Exorcist -class grand cruisers.

The Repulsive is nice alright.

My players have an Avenger class (bought long before BK came out). The player of the RT was trying to pick up an awesome power sword (They were at an Imperial Navy Base) but kept fluffing the availability rolls horribly - I've never seen die rolling like it. In frustration he picked up his dice proclaiming he would go looking for a Grand cruiser . He found one and with awesome bargaining skills managed to generate a 6% chance of buying it. He rolled a five and sent a message to the Seneschal.

'Bought Ship. We better go and earn some money right now. If we have to make a support role for this whale we are rightly screwed.' The Seneschal asked if the new Cruiser was ready for endeavours and was told that once about 150,000 able voidsmen were rounded up she would be on her way. 'You better get right on that too,' he was told.

For Weapons the advice on macrocannons upthread is on the money. With the barrage/salvo rules as written they outperform lances bigtime. Hecutor Broadsides and Sunsear Broadsides kick ass. The arc for port/starboard weapons is pretty narrow so extending the range really opens up options in targeting. Check out the quality upgrades (range and strength are pretty handy) as well as the turbo battery options in Into the Storm. A dorsal lance battery might be handy if you want the ability to do precision strikes for story reasons (hitting buildings from orbit without nuking the whole city for example) but otherwise a sunsear battery will do nicely.

Someone in the crew (maybe two people) should get as awesome as possible with ballistic skill, get the +10% shooting ship weapons talent and an MIU to plug in to the ships shouty gun spirits. If they are a voidmaster with the ordnance reroll so much the better. The VM in my group got up to 73 BS basic and once destoyed a Battlecruiser and two frigates in a single rounds firing from the Avenger. Longer range weapons also increase the short range which provides a +10 to shoot.

Another important feature of naval combat is controlling the speed of your ship. The strategic actions and various upgrades/components that augment speed can be awesome. Going from outside an enemies gun range to point blanking them with bradsides in one turn seems to be the key for attrition free space combat. Get good at tech-use and build a cruiser that can race destroyers and win.

Torpeoes seem pretty competitive but I haven't played with them yet so am loth to recommend them on that basis. They are certainly cool and thematic though so I will recommend them on that basis.

Haven't read the whole thread but I had a thought conscerning the inability for a group to have a functioning cruiser at the beginning due to a lack of Ship Points. Couldn't they use their free acquisition to get some more components to have installed in the ship?

George Labour said:

The starting acquisition does say it's for personal equipment, so the RAW says no. But lets ignore that and consider what one could buy:

- Structure (+0 Scale modifier)

- Common quality (+0)

- 1 SP cost supplemental component*: Scarce (+0)

Total modifier: 0 The maximum allowed modifier on the free acquisition, so it is cheap enough.

If you want a poor quality component, you can change the type to Power (Warp Drive, Generatorum, Void Shields) or change the cost to 2 SP supplemental, or grab a 1 SP essential component.

That's all you can get. It's not much, but it's an option. And I do like the idea of the Missionary bringing his own Temple-Shrine, or the Void-Master who brought his own Macrobattery.

*You could get a 0 SP essential component. But those are free, so you shouldn't waste your free acquisition on one.

Grand Cruisers are behemoths. With a Repulsive you're getting 90 Space, more than enough to fill all six weapons slots with room to spare for cargo holds and additional facilities.

Mars pattern torpedo tubes gets you 2 more tubes than Gryphonne for only Space +2 and Ship Points +1. Thats a bargain, and I'd go for it. Six torpedo tubes is also standard for Imperial Navy Cruisers that use them.

If you want a long-ranged Lance Battery to snipe with, Godsbane is definitely for you. Sunhammer also makes a good choice with +1 Damage, -3 Range, -1 Ship Points. Titanforge are the most common, and form a comfortable middle, while Mezoa are shortest ranged and hardest hitting.

With regards to Macrocannons, Mars pattern are, of course, the most common and come cheap in broadsides. Hecutor plasma batteries are typical for battlecruisers and grand cruisers, they have the longest reach of all but archeotech macrobatteries, but if you're looking for a close-in gunfighter type of weapon, they might not be best. For that, I would recommend one or two of three macrobattery types HouseRuled into a Broadside: Pyros Melta-cannons, Ryza plasma batteries, and Stygies macrocannons. The Ryzas are the most Power-hungry but have great damage at decent range, and the Vaporization rule. Pyros have shortest range, but only -1 in comparison to the Ryza and equal damage to them, and their Critical Hits are automatically Fire! Stygies are essentially Mars cannons with +1 Space, -1 Range, but an effective Penetration of 3. The best part about Stygies are that their Penetration 3 applies to the entirety of any salvo they're combined into, so they make great supporting cannons for either those Pyros or Ryzas.

If you're really worried about the -10 Navigation, drop a Warpsbane Hull on your grand cruiser to neutralize the figures.

I'd grab the Warpsbane hull regardless, that reroll is just too good unless you really like Daemonic Incursions.