Mjoellnir said "While I hate the design I don't agree with you here. The pilot of the Dreadknight wears Terminator armour. That's not really exposed. A Terminator can take more rockets to the face than a Rhino to the front armour."

That seems just as dumb. Why build a dreadnought just to put someone in tactical dreadnought armor inside it? Is this like a space marine turducken? Or for the same price, you could just finish the dreadnought and have a dreadnought AND a terminator to deploy. I mean, I know space marines are rare, but there's definitely more bodies than suits of termie armour to go around.

deinol said:

If you try to find logic you are definitely in the wrong universe. If I would value soldiers that practically died in battle and wanted to see them continue serving on the battleflied I would probably put them into a Land Raider with a power dozer blade instead of a walking tin can. I don't know why they prefer living pilots for the Dreadknight or why they chose to put them into Terminator armour instead of power armour and an enclosed cockpit. Maybe because with the sole exception of the new purifiers all veteran Grey Knights are wearing terminator armour and the pilot is a veteran? Concerning the number of terminator suits Grey Knights are the only army that has Terminators as standards without a special character model and they have the best relationships to Mars. I don't care either. The model is ugly as sin and the control mechanisms are laughable (funny idea to stop him: Fly to the pilot with a jump pack and hang onto his arms.) I was just mentioning that the pilot is protected, unlike the poor guy in the Penitent Engine or the Talos.

Mjoellnir said:

I see. It's just that DW Marines already use way more powerful equipment and special rules - why would anyone make them even stronger for the express purpose of crossovers with weaker character types?

This kind of handling makes me fear that the GKs in Daemon Hunter may indeed be not as suitable for mixed groups as I had originally hoped/believed.

Mjoellnir said:

Which would also be silly, imo. I can't even imagine why a Marine would forego his own weapons; it's not like they can really "meld with the crowd" and go undercover.

Mjoellnir said:

But also a pretty epic one. What could be more apocalyptic?

Mjoellnir said:

While I hate the design I don't agree with you here. The pilot of the Dreadknight wears Terminator armour. That's not really exposed. A Terminator can take more rockets to the face than a Rhino to the front armour.

True, but it's more exposed than simply doing what should be considered normal and slap a front plate on the walker for additional protection. It's not like Marines would also use open-topped Predator cabrio-tanks just because the driver wears his own armour. And at least according to the official pictures, there actually are Dreadknights whose pilots do not wear a helmet...

Meh, I get that the idea was probably just "take a Termie and make him look more badass", and instead of adding individual attachments to the limbs or the torso they went all the way and created some kind of harness - but it still looks ugly and not really ... I don't know, "fitting"? It's like some sort of steampunk armour from another franchise, over the top even when looking at the weird gothic of 40k. But of course that's just my perception - I don't even collect them, so my reaction could be better described as confusion.

Considering that the DH Marine material was from the very beginning of the game and they've made changes to that material before, I would not expect them to change from the DW standard. Hell those Marine stats come from an adventure that was written before they settled on the final version of the Corruption rules. As for power levels, Grey Knights are clearly heinously powerful but several Ascended careers are heinously powerful and get access to Unnatural Attributes so at that level they'll work as well as the rest. It's not like the Vindicare Assassin can complain that a Grey Knight is overpowered and keep a straight face.

For me, the overall power of the Grey Knights doesn't matter so much. Whether each is as strong as a normal marine, or if each is as far above marines as marines are to humans makes no difference to me. The reason is because out of all of the Imperium's forces (with the possible exception to assassins) they are the fewest in number. But more importantly, they're an extremely specialized fighting force and focus almost entirely on taking down demonic entities. If a Grey Knight is being sent in, things went from bad to worse a long long time ago and they deserve to be there.

I don't mind GK's getting Ascended level power, but it would kinda suck if they were that powerful at the start. That means I'd have to be playing an Ascended game to either play one or to let someone else play one. That doesn't sit well with me.

And while I acknoweldge that they get sent in when things have gone to hell in a hand basket it's a lot more fun to be able to play them before that point. At least for me. Thus there overall power does seem very important.

Kael said:

Grey Knights are stable psyker Space Marines with access to gear superior to that of normal Astartes.. Forget the heroes and specialty troops. They're far too powerful baseline to be in anything below an Ascended level game. Weapons which will reduce other acolytes to bloody smears will barely injure them and they will be armed with such utterly deadly weapons as Nemesis Force Weapons and astartes bolters and that's before talking about psycannons and storm bolters and so forth. Add to that their badass psychic powers and nothing less than Ascended players could be considered equals or near equals.

Cynical Cat said:

And if they are only Ascended characters then you take half the fun out of having such a book in the first place. I think it is limiting to just have them for Ascended play online. Where's the fun in that? Some people enjoy working their way up to being Ascended level of power.

I'm sure there could be ways to tone them down so that they could fit in better with non Ascended party.

Tone them down? They're specially equiped psyker Space Marines who are expert daemon killers. They don't come in light. They come in heavy, extra heavy, and lays the smack down on Bloodthirsters. In general, f you don't want to do Ascension level Dark Heresy, don't let anyone play Grey Knights.

The only way to play Grey Knights in a non Ascension level campaign is one designed specifically to do that. You can do that, but that's a nonstandard game by definition. One where they Grey Knight is deprived of gear and the other PCs handle the social interaction/information gathering roles could work, but a Grey Knight is so powerful that the GM would have to carefully manage the power level (high powered gear sized for normal humans is a must especially if there are other combat classes. Playing a vanilla DH game with as an IG with another PC who is a combat psyker with good WS, BS, brutally fear resistant, and Unnatural Strength and Toughness is extraordinarily unfair unless a mound of cool gear is dropped on the IG) to make things work out. It's something that should only be attempted if it's worked out ahead of time and I wouldn't recommend it.

That's true. I can't imagine Marines in anything below an Ascended game, and the latest developer diary does seem to aim at this, too.

The problem I see is that, if the Grey Knights in Daemon Hunter indeed use the current Deathwatch level instead of the Astartes stuff that existed in Dark Heresy before, you can't even have a proper Ascended game with them. From all I've read, the only non-Marine Ascended DH careers that can feel remotely useful in DW are the Vindicare (due to his special Exitus rifle) and a psyker (due to psyker powers) ... that is, as long as the Marines prevent the enemy (who will naturally be statted in a way that hopefully poses a threat even to DW characters) from somehow reaching their squishy allies.

That said, I think the Daemon Hunter book will offer many things for non-Ascended characters, too. The way I understood the announcements, it's practically the "Player's Guide to the Ordo Malleus".

Cynical Cat said:

As a GM I would still prefer to have the opition of allowing them in non Ascended games. I'm not saying the issue is a make or break on whether or not the end product will be good. I'm just saying I'd be a bit let down if it was only meant for Ascended games. There is nothing wrong with giving a weaker version for those who want to use them along side an Ascended and more proper version. The Sisters of Battle have that opition. And they are already including a DW opition. One more opition isn't going to kill the GK image any more so than what the new Codex has apprently done.

Mjoellnir said:

That's awesome! I think I'll start training a Beast of Nurgle to do this with its tentacles & send it in! It can get the legs too... and slobber on the Knight's face if he's one of the douchebags who pilot those things without a helmet.

Mjoellnir said:

If you try to find logic you are definitely in the wrong universe. If I would value soldiers that practically died in battle and wanted to see them continue serving on the battleflied I would probably put them into a Land Raider with a power dozer blade instead of a walking tin can. I don't know why they prefer living pilots for the Dreadknight or why they chose to put them into Terminator armour instead of power armour and an enclosed cockpit. Maybe because with the sole exception of the new purifiers all veteran Grey Knights are wearing terminator armour and the pilot is a veteran? Concerning the number of terminator suits Grey Knights are the only army that has Terminators as standards without a special character model and they have the best relationships to Mars. I don't care either. The model is ugly as sin and the control mechanisms are laughable (funny idea to stop him: Fly to the pilot with a jump pack and hang onto his arms.) I was just mentioning that the pilot is protected, unlike the poor guy in the Penitent Engine or the Talos.

Aside from the baby harness look, it really isn't that silly of a concept.

First of all, it needs to be acknowledged that all Space Marine vehicle crew wear armour. Now, in all other cases than the Dreadknight, this is Power Armour, but in the case of the Dreadknight it's Tactical Dreadnought Armour, the best protection you can find in the Imperium, pretty much. When the pilot is wearing something like that, they don't really need any additional armour plate (and aren't they supposedly protected by some energy field anyway?).

When a leg or something gets knocked off the pilot can just jump out, grab a sword, and get right back to kicking daemonic ass. Which is what the Dreadknight is stated to be for, helping the Grey Knights go up against big nasty monsters, because there isn't always a Dreadnought around, but there are plenty of Greater Daemons, Carnifexes, Wraithlords, and Daemon Princes running around. Apparently the GK don't like Dreadnought's very much either. All of which should be enough explanation why they don't just use those instead.

And your opinion on the model is just that, your opinion. A lot of people like it.

Lynata said:

God damnit, the Kill Marine specialty doesn't make them even more powerful than they already are, it just gives them a small number of skills and other abilities that let them act on their own, away from other Space Marines. I wish to all the gods that you'd read the books before you started bitching and moaning about the content of them.

(And I'm not 'picking on' you either, I couldn't give a flying **** about what you do on these forums, so get over yourself.)

Kael said:

Then prepare to be let down, because you're not going to get a toned down version.

Also, there isn't really a toned down version for the Sisters of Battle. There's a version that gets to start with lots of cool equipment, and there's one that gets to start with equipment much more in line with the rest of the DH careers. They're still humans, so aside from their gear, there's really no difference between the Soriritas from Blood of Martyrs and the Inquisitor's Handbook.

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

Hahahahaha... I can see the conversion of a nurgling latched on while the arms are locked up trying to yank it off winding up as a demotivational poster:

EPIC FAIL

Maybe next time they'll make sure he can reach his face.

Fellow before me: Take a massive chill-pill and think for a moment before posting. Saying that even vehicle crews where armour and then saying in the same breath that they don't need armour plating because of it is contradictory and silly. The difference between Terminator armour and another 25 inches of Adamantium is the difference between a Bloodletter of Khorne glancing off the side and him taking you apart like a Saint Bernard's tennis ball.

In regards to "his opinion," he never said "The model looks stupid, that's the end story" (despite how stupid it looks) but rather expressed his opinion, exactly what this thread is intended for.

The kill-team abilities are extra abilities that other players don't get, so yeah, they contribute to them being even more powerful. More options, more versatility, more tactical viability. I wish you'd think before posting about how moronic everyone else is. Lynata has contributed h(er/is? I'm inclined to think 'Her' but my general experience with rpg forums discourages me) fair share of helpful and insightful comments and 'rulings' across the boards, while you decided you needed to attack h(er/im) for his opinion.

[/rant]

Blood Pact said:

You know what the really sad part about your post is? That I was actually defending the idea of a pilot in terminator armour. And yes, my opinion on the model is my opinion. O_o What else?

Blood Pact said:

Being a Kill-Marine doesn't make you stronger than other marines, but it eliminates part of a big weakness if you are on your own. Being the only Marine in a group came with a drawback that could be seen as balancing when you see all the awesome stuff Marines get.

Personally I think that a few things went wrong with the game design. Sure the differences between tabletop and fluff Marines makes it complicated but I think the DH and RT power armours should be better (a power armour that runs for 1d5 hours is an exceptionally cruel joke), weaponry should be brought to the same level with Astartes weaponry being of a higher quality (okay, maybe their melee weapons should be bigger...). The holy bolter is simply that awesome, we don't need a holier-than-you bolter. And squad mode should be something all squad-based military could get. Or we even could have lived without it. I will never get how working in a team interferes with the nose of a Space Wolf.

That's awesome! I think I'll start training a Beast of Nurgle to do this with its tentacles & send it in! It can get the legs too... and slobber on the Knight's face if he's one of the douchebags who pilot those things without a helmet.

Hm, seems I'm helping chaos.... against chaos. So I guess it's all right.^^

BangBangTequila said:

Really! We are fans of the game. We have all stated our opinions. None of it is anything to get all riled up over. That's the problem with forum posts; people can be as nasty as they want with no fear of reprecussion.

Kael said:

The issue would probably be that the weaker SoB is a Novice who does not use the high-powered signature equipment. For the Marines you admittedly also have the Scouts, but they have access to some similar equipment - so to avoid the issue you'd either have to use the older DH Astartes rules or don't give them this kind of equipment at all but restrict them to, for example, combat shotguns. More importantly, however, is that Grey Knight Scouts are not sent on field missions because they are not deemed ready to face this kind of threat before not having completed their training.

Then again, it wouldn't be the first time that FFG has taken liberties with the fluff to allow things to work in the game, so perhaps it would be possible to find some sort of excuse/justification as to why a GK Scout is sent on a mission of lesser importance, where he could work alongside weaker allies. However, even a Scout would still be much more powerful, so unless you want to equip everyone else in the team with very good weapons and armour right from rank 1 onwards you'll still feel a notable gap.

That said, the combination of combat shotgun, carapace and Unnatural Toughness/Strength could actually make for a fairly balanced CQB fighter, when the other combat-centric non-Marine careers focus on different areas (ranged combat, fire support or evasion/melee)? Could be worth a try, keeping in mind the advice that's already supposed to make BoM SoB work at rank 1 (though I still find that iffy).

Blood Pact said:

I've read the DW Core Rulebook, so I have a pretty good idea about the special perks that other careers do not get (even in cases where they should). So what do you mean when you say "cannot act on his own"? Are you are implying that a Space Marine without squad mode is inferior to a common Ascended Acolyte, despite his Unnatural stats and his overpowered gear and the other abilities that would still apply in solo mode? If so ... well, let's just say we disagree.

Other than that ... what Alpha Chaos 13 said.

Blood Pact said:

Nothing in the previewed information thus far has lead me to think that I will be let down. In fact they did say that they were designing them more along DH lines. So it's not unreasonble to hope for them to be able to fit into a non Ascended game. I don't see what the big deal is in wanting something that can be used in non Ascended games. So long as they evenutally get to the same power level that the fluff says they are at does it really matter if the non Ascended ones are in training? It's about GM opitions.

Also on the matter of SoB the book noted that the ones on BM are a bit more powerful than your standard group. I think that approach works well and should be used with GK's. Having a weaker one for non Asceneded and a stronger one for Ascended or those who want them that way.

I'm not sure why you need to be so hostile about it though.

The issue would probably be that the weaker SoB is a Novice who does not use the high-powered signature equipment. For the Marines you admittedly also have the Scouts, but they have access to some similar equipment - so to avoid the issue you'd either have to use the older DH Astartes rules or don't give them this kind of equipment at all but restrict them to, for example, combat shotguns. More importantly, however, is that Grey Knight Scouts are not sent on field missions because they are not deemed ready to face this kind of threat before not having completed their training.

Well I would think that Grey Knights in general wouldn't be sent on missions composed of a mixed party of indviduals. I think the entire idea of playing a Grey Knight in a DH game means that you are likely not playing the standard anyway. A GK scout on assignment with a group of Acoylotes fits then.

I'm one of those who thinks that DW marines start just a tad too powerful. I'd love to see rules for space marines progressing up from scout to normal marine status. And I don't think a full marine, Grey Knight or otherwise, should be less than ascended level. Scouts should probably be at least Rank 5 DH or starting Rogue Trader.

I don't know much about grey knight training, but shouldn't their scouts get some field experience? I understand they shouldn't be sent on their own to take out deamon enclaves, but I would think that some field experience under an inquisitor would be good training.

I am very curious how this book turns out.

Kael said:

It is unreasonable to see them try to fit Grey Knights into a non-Ascended game. That's a situation where you have one character who is grossly more powerful than the rest and you shouldn't expect them to try to shoe horn it in. There's far more to the Ordo Malleus than Grey Knights and I expect the book to have plenty to offer non Ascended PCs but Grey Knight PCs in an Ascended campaign? Deathwatch rookies start at Ascended level and go up and the Deathwatch, as awesome as it is, isn't the Grey Knights.

On th subject of the Kill Marine, it isn't more powerful. The Kill Marine loses are the group based Deathwatch abilities that are a core part of the game. He's compensated for losing the abilities by gaining powerful solo ones, but it's a trade off. Does that make him appallingly lethal? Yes, it does but the group abilities make a who kill team appallingly lethal so its fair.

Cynical Cat said:

No not at all. No more unreasonable than how they fit being an Inqusitor into being playable. This isn't a Deathwatch game. This isn't a Deathwatch supplement. They don't have to be Deathwatch powerful. As a matter of fact I would be very upset if they were written as Deathwatch characters but put into a Dark Heresy game.

Now the Grey Knights have to draw their people from somewhere. So even if it isn't a GK class, so long as they give an outline and a guideline of what you should be doing to work your way into the Ascended class of Grey Knight then they have in fact given you the ablity to play a non Ascended Grey Knight.

Ultimately it should be about whats fun. Offering a non Ascended and Ascended opitions to being a Grey Knight is a good idea. If we were to stick to strict idea's on Grey Knights then making them for DH isn't really practicle. In anything but an all GK game they are already likely going to be doing things your standard GK isn't going to do. And once we concede the idea that GK's are joining mixed parties of indivudals who may not be out hunting deamons then I don't think it's that unreasonable to have them as a playable opition from rank 1.

Playing as an Inquisitor is what Ascension level is for. There is no way to play below that level and have a Grey Knight actually be a Grey Knight. You want an Inquisition Daemonhunter in power armour? You can do that at lower level without wrecking the game but Grey Knights are far too powerful. And not wanting to use Deathwatch as a yardstick for how powerful Marines are? When Deathwatch specifically has options for playing Deathwatch characters in Rogue Trader and DH games? No, it's not going to happen. FFG isn't going to walk away from their hard work and 40K background material to create underpowered Grey Knights for you.

Cynical Cat said:

Whats with the hostility. All I'm saying is that it would be nice to have that option. Having the option doesn't remove from anything. And based on what people have said about the GK from the new Codex making them playable before Ascended level is likely not the worst possible thing you could do to them or the fluff for them.

It's not walking away from all their hard work to find a way to make Grey Knights playable concepts before you reach Ascended level. They made playing an Inquisitor a playable concept before you are Ascended. Sure you are only Acoyltes but that's better than nothing.

They are going to have to do some toying with the fluff anyway. Otherwise you wouldn't be able to fit a Grey Knight in any game that wasn't purely about everyone being Grey Knights. But I have a feeling that a fair number of people who will buy the book will be looking to add one or two Grey Knight PC's to the party. And honestly what does a Grey Knight have any business adventuring around the galaxy with an ascended Arbitator, Psyker, and Scum?

It really isn't as bad as you are making it out to be. It's just a desire to have a play option. I don't see how having that option for people who don't want to play just Ascended games ruins anything for you or anything else.

I doubt this would wreck the game.

What hostility? Hostility from me looks a lot meaner. I think you're somewhat deluded about what Astartes and Grey Knights are and how powerful they are and that's why you think they'll work outside of Ascension but that's as far as that goes. As for what a Grey Knight will be doing with Ascended Arbitrator is that an Ascended Arbitrator is not some guy. He's a senior member of the Inquisition and the Grey Knight is a member of the Chapter Militant of the Ordo Malleus. They have every business working together as their both parts of the Inquisition and at Ascended level they're both massive badasses and it can work.

Cynical Cat said:

I'm not confused at all. I just don't think that one should strictly follow the fluff at the expense of what might be fun. I acknowledge that they are powerful So are Inquisitors. Yet they were toned down to be more playable to the point where you are playing the guy working to be one. It's not that big of a strech to tone things down or to provide a means to play a Grey Knight who is working on becoming that Ascended bad ass.

Also an Ascended Arbitrator isn't a senior member of the Inquisition. He may not even be an Inquisitor. And that still doesn't explain why our Grey Knight is paling around with that Ascended Scum over there. A single Grey Knight in a mixed party is out of his element. Grey Knights are meant to come in and fight Daemon's and other Chaos nasties. Yet once they join an adventuring party they are likely going to be doing any number of things that isn't standard Grey Knight canon fluff. And if thats going to happen then I see no problem with including options for Ascended and non Ascended play. If you don't like the non Ascended ones then don't use them. But that doesn't mean others won't want them.