MKX said:

I think you are reacting to a possible situation that Fantasy Flight does not intend to happen with these rules. From the latest developer diary, it seems like Grey Knights are intended to be in an all Grey Knight squad. I don't think they honestly intend for one of them to be included in a group of acolytes on an investigation, or a hit squad for that matter.

I agree that including them in an Acolyte cell in a completely inappropriate idea. If for no other reason than the fact that there is no reason for it to happen in the first place. Keep in mind that unless there is a daemonic incursion of some sort, the Grey Knights don't typically get called in.

As an aside, there are plenty of things that can ruin a space marine's day. The ever popular Genestealers, for instance, will slice them into ribbons. They also don't stand up to some heavy weapons very well, plasma and las-cannons being foremost on that list. Can't really imagine them escaping a hit from a power fist without at least some damage. Pretty sure there are some psyker powers that can prove nasty, as well.

Daisuke said:

Hm, the new entry is a bit confusing - on the one hand it says they would be as powerful as Deathwatch characters, whilst on the other it also says that GK careers are designed to work "alongside" Ascended DH characters. Plus, why even make it a DH book if half of it would really only be compatible with DW-style campaigns, and why include an extra ruleset to "adapt" (note the choice of words) GKs for DW?

Well, I guess we will see - but it wouldn't be the first time that the writers had "nerfed" character types for the sole reason to make them includeable with a DH group. Imho, the latest diary article raises more questions than it answers.

So we'll just ad-lib with 2-3 pages of Grey Knights NPC stats to tide GM's over in a DH play situation where the heavy boys get sent in to sort it out, but I have this dreadful feeling we're going to get 20-30pages of **** that really ONLY belongs in a Deathwatch setting, stuck in the Dark Heresy book which could be better served expanding the DH line. Pages that could be devoted to a great number of much more original things and you must admit, these books are getting much slimmer. The last two books I bought (Battlefleet Koronous and Blood of Martyrs) where barely much better than the 2nd Ed D&D books I used to buy in the 90's

Its not that I dislike Grey Knights either, they're one of the more interesting armies running around that I've given serious thought to collecting more than once. They're even running around in my game, some of the PC's even saw one once... from a very long way away.

Lynata said:

Because if they didn't include rules to use Grey Knights with Deathwatch, people would be complaining about that instead, instead of jerking their knee around like a Riverdancer making baseless assumptions that "half" the book is going to be for Deathwatch.

Blood Pact said:

Apparently there seems to be a misunderstanding ... again. I do not yet think that which you claim, I said that this would be the case if Grey Knights were not intended to work alongside Throne Agents. For if GKs could truly only work by themselves, the inclusion of DW rules alone could easily take up 50% of the pages.

So hold the flames for now, alright?

... on the other hand, it is perhaps notable that the developer diaries, their artworks and the book's cover themselves seem to focus more on the Grey Knights than the Malleus in general. Mhm. We shall see. Either way, some people will get what they want, others won't, as always.

To play Warp's Advocate here, the GK are the symbol of the Malleus, like the large brimmed hat is the symbol of the witch-hunters; so all thsoe pcitures of GKs must have been put there because just a picture of 'some guy' would have had less direct impact than let's say a GK to represent that it's a Malleus book

Point taken - though I was more thinking about something like a mixed party of Grey Knights and an Malleus Inquisitor, something like this . Most books so far had featured several character types instead of just a single one.

But it still is a cool cover either way, and you could likely argue that we've seen enough Inquisitors and Acolytes by now...

It could be something like that- but I suppose to have a Inquisitor-GK team, that would be Ascension; I think a GK is lightyears from some lowly acolytes cell, yet again, a team of GK with a cell making an assault/raid on a location, the cell acting as scouts/guides while the GK are the muscles.

All theory of course.

I hope the book will have like BoM or the IH diffrent origin/alternate ranks more centered on Deamon-related stuff as well, like it was said before; looking at the small descriptive text, it might be more of a 'fluff' book with some gaming elements in it; mind you, I'll end up buying it, but I might hold my horses until it's out there and read a little here and there; I got that Citadel of Skulls book to get ready for, not to mention the Arbites/Scum book and the IG book

My thinking is GK will be playable as both a single character alongside Ascension-level characters, and ONLY Ascension-level characters, or as a team made up of entirely Grey Knights that the team can play after their regular Acolyte characters have failed to stop the big bad warp demon from being summoned and got themselves killed in the process.

Though as a unique perspective, perhaps the two teams are working simultaneously but in different locations. Siege of Vraks was mentioned as a good example. The Acolytes have a series of support objectives to deal with, (Bring down the planetary shield, knock out the commander of the heretic human forces, free the enslaved humans and convince them to take up arms against the chaos forces), while the Grey Knights would take a more vanguard approach of smashing through the swarms of warp beasts and taking down the Bloodletter that destroyed the entire armor column.

The success of the Acolytes missions would affect the difficulty of the Grey Knights mission, maybe not a tremendous amount, but enough to cause some headaches for the Grey Knights.

Edit: Or exactly what Braddoc said.

Oh yeah, naturally I was referring to Ascended Acolytes, or "Throne Agents" if you will. Apologies if my choice of words was somewhat confusing - I tend to use the "Acolyte" term for anyone working in an Inquisitor's retinue. I'm just too used to the tabletop descriptions.

In any case, the developer diary specifically speaks of Ascended characters as well as the option to run a GK-only squad, so I do believe you are spot-on.

For me the important aspect is that it's a DH book. As such I think the power level for GK's should be similar to whats in DH. Maybe the book should have been done in DW with notes for using them in DH but in the end thats not where FFG went with it. But it makes no sense to have GK's just completely run over a DH party so the power levels need to stay comparable.

The new article on the book is nice though

Oh man, as a relative newcomer in the quagmire of rule debates , coming in heavy with about 8 years experience in roleplaying games such as DnD 2e all the way to (shudder) 4e, Shadowrun, Aberrant, M&M, DH, DW, and more recently Ascension, tabletop WH and 40K, and taking part in the creation of 2 play-by-post game systems, and more importantly years of personal experience with firearms of all types and real-world study of ballistics and mechanical Engineering, I would love to jump on the Power Armour and Bolter debate. Sorry for being that guy who just can't keep his mouth shut.

I won't mention anybody's points specifically, just provide my own (I like to think) objective, though I suppose opinions are by definition subjective, 2 cents. Though something to consider when you make up your minds on rules within individual campaigns is that the Inquisition in the DH/DW setting (which I view as almost an alternate universe when it comes to the BL books and TT games, though most of what you read in the novels can be done by the books RAW or with a little tweaking) does have access to armour far beyond the means of what could be called "civilian," "Mortal," or "wee-little-baby" versions in the Ascension book called Ignateus-pattern armour. This is what I would rule, as a GM, Sororitas to be wearing, since it is military grade armour that far surpasses the armour available to organizations with less influence and and power and (notably) less financial resources then the almost omni-authoritative Inquisition or the galaxy-spanning cult of the Emperor. It is silly to assume that a small woman would wear armour to equal the space marines, not because they couldn't, but because the bulk and lack of an MIU would render them immensely clumsy and awkward. Marines are bigger, their armour is bigger, and the protective capabilities would likewise be greater.

In the same way that Tactical Dreadnought Armour provides a steadier and more powerful platform for weaponry then regular Power Armour, why would the Marines' larger, heavier armour and larger, heavier, more powerful physiology not provide a better capability for weapons then a Sororitas or Inquisitor? It only makes sense, then, that they use bigger, heavier shells in their boltguns the way a Heavy Bolter uses bigger, heavier shells then a regular Bolter. I would personally equate the comparison to Space Marine bolt-weapons using shells equivalent to the "catholic school girl" heavy bolter shells, and the heavy bolter shells used by Marines are comparably larger then their standard shells.

Also note that Space Marines don't really use the Adeptus Mechanicus as an organization, but rather use Tech-marines, who are (by my interpretation of fluff) the equivalent to Magos that hold their ultimate service to the Omnissiah lies in loyalty to their Chapter rather then Mars, and it would stand to reason that they keep their secrets (in this case the patterns for Aquila-mark Power Armour and Artificer armour) to themselves in the same way any Magos does.

Please excuse any improper grammar or punctuation, I'm still not used to this laptop's keyboard so some backspaces get missed or capitals neglected.

Ahh ... I really don't want to kick off that debate again, but Battle Sisters do not use an MIU to interface with their armour (rumours have it Vandire rejected this option out of personal preferences *ahem*), but an extremely sophisticated rack of pressure sensors. Furthermore, bigger armour does not equal bigger plating: Marine armour looks bulky because its wearer is bulky, and because it features a f..kton of pretty useful gadgets that other suits do not have. That's all there is to it (and the real advantage of Astartes armour), and that's why, in GW's background, there is indeed an equal level of protection. If you would look at the official cross-section images we have on Marine power armour, you'd see that the actual layer of armour is fairly thin - which is why it can be replicated elsewhere, if you have the means and influence to procure such a valuable piece of gear. The actual differences simply exist elsewhere. The same principle extends to the weapons: Marine bolter patterns (which are actually not used solely by these augmented superhumans) are not heavier and (slightly) larger because they would have different calibers, they are heavier and bigger because the guns themselves(!) are armoured for greater resistance in intense close combat situations.

At least as far as studio canon is concerned* (so in a way you definitively do have a point when mentioning "alternate universes"). Which elegantly bends this small excursion back to the original topic!

BL/FFG saw fit to essentially "nerf" the Sororitas for the RPG to make them fit (more or less ...) into a normal DH game**, so in theory it is perfectly possible for them to "nerf" GKs as well to make them fit into an Ascended game. Will they do so, though? This remains to be seen. I could see lots of GK/Marine fans disappointed by something like this, but on the other hand perhaps they could be "appeased" with the Deathwatch conversion rules and we will end up with two different versions, depending solely on which power level one prefers. You could even argue that something like this already happened to Sororitas as well, given that the BoM rules have officially been labeled an alternative to the IH variant, and not a replacement - so it would not be a novum.

Alternatively, maybe the Daemon Hunter book will simply introduce DW-level armour and weapons for Ascended Throne Agents, similar to how other supplements already pushed the equipment levels skywards. Just compare the Ryza plasma pistol to what the core rulebook originally offered. Or, in case of DW, what Rites of Battle offers in comparison to the weapons in the original DW release.

Time will tell!

(*: of course you can call it silly, but the same could be said about lots of other things - it is a scif-i/fantasy setting, after all! some stuff has at least a remotely plausible explanation, though, if you know where to look for the details ... should you be interested in further discussion, feel free to drop me a PM)

(**: or, conversely, buff Deathwatch Marines out of scope for DH/RT characters even where studio material mentioned equality - either way, it created a gap that feels slightly too big and prevents proper crossovers even when involving Ascended characters)

Lynata said:

You say this a lot, and I admit I am far from having an encyclopaedic knowledge of fluff, but I have never seen sisters presented as more powerful than any other highly trained person in power armour..

MKX said:

I take that back after a look at the new codex... its quite terrible.

MKX said:

Aww, it's got to you too? I was considering expanding my Guards with some Grey Knight's / Inquisition at one point, but now I'd prefer to be able to live with myself.

I'm wondering how they are are going to describe the working relationship between the Inquisition in the Ordo Malleus and the Grey Knights. From previous stuff I've read they work together quite closely (where the Grey Knights operate at all, which is rare enough) but DW seems to come across that the Inquisition just gets in the way.

I dunno who wrote it manages to live with themselves, the fluff is hilarious to say the least.

"Well, we went to help the sisters of battle out and found they where mostly dead, so we killed the rest of them, covered our weapons and armour in virgin blood, did some rituals and went out and pwnt the enemy protected from corruption by that act"

Ah, quality stuff indeed!

bogi_khaosa said:

They aren't! It's just that few other organizations are that "highly trained" whilst simultaneously wearing power armour of this quality. You could argue that their fanatism/zealotry gives them a further boost in terms of morale, but as this can also turn out to be a double-edged sword (refusal to withdraw when it would be smart, spending time with religious stuff that could rather be spent training for combat, etc) it kind of cancels itself out.

What I was referring to is that FFG's interpretation of the setting doesn't hold up to GW's fluff in terms of the quality of their equipment, although you could argue that this is mainly an issue with Deathwatch or even Rogue Trader offering superior stuff rather than when you look solely at DH itself. Still, even there you have a few oddities, such as the Sacristan (which is supposedly a pistol variant of the Godwyn-De'az) being more powerful than its bigger cousin. Nothing you can't houserule, of course, but being an enthusiast about this faction it "feels" as if the equipment presented in the RPG just doesn't quite reach the level it should (when compared to other stuff). Which could be necessitated by FFG's attempt to make such characters fit in with other members of an Acolyte cell. If you go by BoM, the difference is already quite harsh even with the RAW equipment - any more would have simply broken the game, at least in early levels. We have a similar issue with other character types not getting stuff they should have at all, such as Arbitrators. It's a sacrifice of implementation versus balance, which is why I tend to believe that some careers have just been implemented "too early".

I guess in the end it isn't that bad, as the problem will mostly only show if you do crossovers with the other game systems. The GKs in Daemon Hunter will apparently get special rules for such crossovers - it would be nice if (Ascended) Acolytes would get them as well, though I feel this is a "problem" that will only be addressed with a 2nd edition of the RPG.

Anyways, it is possible that the DH Grey Knights will follow a similar approach (such as using the "old" pre-DW stats for Marine equipment, "fixing" Unnatural stats and neglecting many of the special perks such characters get in DW - some of which should already be available to DH and RT characters anyways). The only alternative would be to boost Ascended DH characters - but either way, if the diary truly hints at GKs working alongside Ascended Acolytes, there need to be some adjustments.

MKX said:

Really - Especially that stupid Dreadknight miniature. The first time I saw a picture, I thought it was a lame conversion. To my horror, I discovered that it was GW's new prize model.

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

Really - Especially that stupid Dreadknight miniature. The first time I saw a picture, I thought it was a lame conversion. To my horror, I discovered that it was GW's new prize model.

Well, matter of taste. I'm sure there have to be people who dig this new style. Right ...?

PS: You know what the Dreadknight reminded me of?

I wouldn't hold my breath for any big conversion rules to make Grey Knights weaker for DH and stronger for DW. The only rule Deathwatch got to work better alongside DH and RT was the Kill Marine which is basically just a way to make his squad-based abilities work without a squad. I guess for Grey Knights it would be similar, something to let them use their psyker-group abilities without other psykers.

And yes, the new Codex Grey Knights is horrible. Grey Knights are now basically a chaos legion of the 5th chaos god. The Emperor, god of racism and stupidity. When he's finally born into the world the Sol system will be at the heart of a second Eye of Terror.

@ Lynata - Yeah, crossed with a Robotech mecha. And I agree with you about the coolness of the miniatures. The basic marines & terminators in the new line are still pretty cool, but that's it. And you are correct that a lot of people do love the Dreadknight. I don't get it; it has no 40K "feel" whatsoever.

@ Mjoellnir - Good stuff!

Lynata, the problem is the cargolifter from Aliens wasn't designed for any actual combat. It was a civilian tool. The dreadknight was specifically designed for war, which makes the exposed pilot that much more ridiculous.

Mjoellnir said:

Wait, someone thought DW Marines needed a boost to work alongside DH/RT characters? o_O

As for the Emperor being the 5th Chaos God - I actually like that theory, but I too was surprised to see that the Grey Knights are so obviously leaning into that direction now.

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

Must be a generation thing. Really makes me feel old.

jareddm said:

That's what I mean. Okay, granted, we've seen similar things already, but the Penitent Machine can be explained by religious lunacy - given that it is essentially designed to have its pilot slowly get killed in combat. With the Dreadknight, it just looks like half of the kit is missing.

Lynata said:

Well, it's an advanced specialty. You pay 1000 XP and get access to an advancement table with a bunch of more or less useful talents (one unique among them) and skills, can enter squad mode without another Marine (even though he doesn't get bonus cohesion for the command skill) and can use Bolter Assault, Dig In, Fire for Effect, Furious Charge and Regroup that way (all others are forbidden, even the chapter-specific ones.) They are advertised as being "[...] ideally suited to working either alongside Inquisitors and their retinues or Rogue Traders and their crews." There is a warning that it should be considered carefully because the Space Marine would be more powerful than other characters and the fluff text talks about often using scout armour and non-Astartes weapons, but there are no rules that force them to and the picture is your typical classic Deathwatch Marine with bolter and chainsword.

Lynata said:

I always hoped that killing the Emperor would be the way to force humanity into developing again. But from what I read that would now only free him. I don't want to imagine what would happen then..... The Emperor with similar power over humans as Slaanesh over Eldar is a pretty scary concept...

Lynata said:

While I hate the design I don't agree with you here. The pilot of the Dreadknight wears Terminator armour. That's not really exposed. A Terminator can take more rockets to the face than a Rhino to the front armour.