Well, a "Civilian" model of terminator armor would be required since the Astartes all interface with their armor through the Black Carapace. No non-astartes is going to have a Black Carapace. Therefore a "Civilian" Terminator Armor is required for those few Inquisitors who seem to wear it.

Right, because we all know that the grace of its wearer directly affects the armoured protection of his suit.

Come to think of it, is Terminator Armour even compatible to the Black Carapace? I seem to recall that the latter only ever gets mentioned in combination with normal power armour, and Terminators are slower than normal Marines.

As a sidenote, it also seems that power armour compatible with the Black Carapace can be worn by people without it, at least I remember such a case from a novel. The wearer just won't get its benefits, of course. I also believe the armour would have to be modified, given that it needs an alternative means of interface (either an MIU or traditional sensors).

Lynata said:

Lynata said:

I don't like civilian bolter.

And I don't like space marines from second edition to now.

They aren't grim or dark, they are only escaped from the worst B-splatter-SCIFI-action-movie of history.

Only space marines with a minimum of sense were first edition marine.

Sebashaw said:

Ah the days when the Fatmariens trolled the galaxy HASSLING GRAFFITI WRITING PUNKS and getting their HELMETS TAKEN AWAY THEN GUT SHOT BY ORKS . Good times, good times.

Those were the good old days. I do feel sorry for that 5% of marines who weren't given a boltgun and had to make do with a lasgun or autogun. And 20% of special weapons marines got a shuriken catapult.

Sadly, despite some of the strange idiosyncrasies of the Rogue Trader era marines, I do tend to prefer the older material. Things were a little rougher and down to earth back then.

My favorite part of the Grey Knight Omnibus is when the hexagramic wards on his armor get so overload they burn images of themselves into his skin, and hose images work later as wards themselves.

As to Astartes weaponry... I've made my opinion know far too often. AFAIC scrub the Marines and just have Stormtroopers.

Lynata said:

Huh?

Lynata said:

TDA is a big, bulky, heavy walking tank with legs and arms, that's why it's slow.

The Black Carapace doesn't make a marine any faster in armor, it just makes the armor respond with nerve impulses in a much faster way than any other interface. Thus making Astartes much more graceful in their armor than say a bunch of bleach blond trollops who attach cones to the front of her armor to feel more feminine.

Lynata said:

The only thing like this I can recall is in Storm of Iron , and that is a whole different ball of wax and doesn't count.

Without a Black Carapace there is no way at all to move a suit of Astartes armor. The armor would have no way to know that you moved your leg or arm and all those little spikes that interface with the Black Carapace would hurt something awful when you clamped that armor shut.

ItsUncertainWho said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

The Black Carapace doesn't make a marine any faster in armor, it just makes the armor respond with nerve impulses in a much faster way than any other interface. Thus making Astartes much more graceful in their armor than say a bunch of bleach blond trollops who attach cones to the front of her armor to feel more feminine.

And of course you can move a suit of Astartes armour without a Black Carapace, you only have to rewire its servos to an alternative means of input. MIUs, pressure-sensors, nerve-electro-sensors, ... Power armour is power armour, and the basic technology behind it is the same. As I said, the only drawback would be that you won't move as "graceful".

Lynata said:

Yes, Space Wolves are silly. But fur ain't nearly as bad as cones.

Lynata said:

And by "rewire" you mean completely rebuild from the ground up so that all that is good about the armor is lost and it's functionality is reduced.

Power armor is not power armor, that's like saying a car is a car. Yes they can all get you from point A to point B but how they get you there is radically different.

HEY! It's not a Masculinity thing, it's an honor thing! If anything the Lascannon is the fake ****. or the Emperor's champion's sword...

^ACTUAL GW RELEASE, I KID THEE NOT!

Seriously?

And We're not the ogres.... you're thinking "Ogryn" We're... I dunno, just special...

ItsUncertainWho said:

@Fenris: Hey, nothing against the Emperor's Champion! I totally loved that idea and its miniature back then.

Lynata said:

Anyone can put runes on a blade? Really? In a universe where the modification of technology is outright Heresy, and where knowledge of Daemonology is proscribed to all but the strongest minded, ANYONE can etch ancient runes of Daemonslaying? Also the whole point of that paragraph was to disprove your assertion that Nemesis Force Weapons are the same as regular force weapons. Yes, they might be force weapons but for the fact that they have special properties against Daemons and psykers but THAT'S WHAT MAKES THEM SPECIAL.

As for "Only in this RPG, not as per official GW fluff". Wow, who would have thought that prior precedents and points of lore set forth in the RPG system we're talking about might be relevant to future releases of the RPG we're talking about! FFG has spent considerable time and effort trying to harmonize the three product lines so that they have some degree of interoperability. It would be nonsensical for them to do a complete 180 when it comes to Grey Knights and peg them at a lower power level than the one that they're entitled to be as Space Marines.

Yeah, they get the Sisters Militant and the IG to assault the Daemon tomb as a distraction so that they can set up their own insertion. They used other forces of the Imperium as cannon fodder to get he job done. This is reinforced in the new Codex. Arguing that they fight alongside IG and Sororitas and therefore they should be balanced alongside them is like arguing that since the Titan Legions fight alongside the Imperial Guard sometimes, that a Warlord Titan should be "balanced" on the scale of a guardsman.

I like how your post conveniently bypasses the actual substantive suggestions and arguments I make regarding the game system and balancing in favour of nitpicking minor points. Tell me, what do you think is "comparable damage" and how do you justify an Ascension level Stormtrooper doing "comparable damage" to a Grey Knight?

Disguise said:

We are talking about Inquisitors and their elite agents here, who have access to some of the best equipment the Imperium is able to procure. So, no, not "ANYONE", but the characters we are talking about in this discussion, if it has to be explicitly pointed out.

And lo and behold, the Inquisitor's Handbook Holy Ordos section includes Force Weapons that have exactly the same creation description as your precious Nemesis Force Weapons. In fact, it does explicitly mention the possibility to create Nemesis Force Weapons as well, though the stats given in IH are for more common variants (I'd expect to see more on this topic in the upcoming book). Just pointing this out as you may have missed this, Captain Capslock.

Disguise said:

Something else you seem to have missed: The stats for Astartes equipment in DH differ drastically from the fanservice in DW. And "Daemon Hunter" is a DH supplement. So the book just has to stick to what was already established in its own product line.

Also, FFG has already pegged other careers "at a lower power level than the one they're entitled to" for the sake of playability, so what makes you think they would not do it again? Other than the special status the precious Astartes hold amongst the majority of paying customers - but this group will get their Movie Grey Knights in the DW conversion segment, so what's the problem?

I for one am pretty sure that a campaign that has Grey Knights work together with DH/Ascension careers - as is hinted in the new preview of the book - would be deemed far more interesting than one where this idea becomes kind of dumb because other characters feel undeservedly useless in areas where they should not.

Disguise said:

Funny, it's described somewhat more as a combined effort - and given that you have already provided false information on this topic once before, I hope you can understand that I am a bit reluctant to just take this "amended version" of what happened at face value. On the other hand I have to rely on synopses on the net as I have not read these novels myself, so I guess it's better to drop this point. Not that this changes anything about different depictions in other novels, mind you.

As has been pointed out elsewhere, it is quite common for the "level of badassery" of certain characters or groups of characters to change from novel to novel, depending on whether they are the protagonists or not, and who is the author. Hence my general preference for GW studio material before consideration of Black Library or FFG stuff, as the latter are always interpretations by a much wider group of people who do not "synchronize" their opinions, resulting in contradictions that can at times be far more blatant (N0-1-H3R3 once posted an interview with one of these writers freely admitting this simply because they don't care as much - I believe the head of publishing flat out said BL novels exist to tell compelling stories and nothing else).

Not that this generally disqualifies good novels in any way for me. I like quite a lot of them, and many do contain excellent ideas and inspirations I have also adopted for the RPGs. In the same vein this is not to mean that the depiction of the GKs in their feature novel is in any way flawed - as I said, I have not read it. In fact, Ben Counter also wrote Daemonblood , and in that story the Sisters were quite capable in fighting both Marines as well as daemons, so I sort-of doubt he would have let them look as useless as you make it sound... Unless he completely changed his mind over the years, of course.

Disguise said:

By using similarly powerful ranged weapons? Shocking concept, I know - who could get an idea like that? Except Codex authors, of course.

I like how every single time this is suggested there's always someone who takes this one aspect as grounds for claiming that I would intend to make Marines 100% equal to everyone else, because apparently doing more melee damage, being twice as tough and experienced, and using equipment with much more gadgets totally doesn't count. No, the almighty Space Marines and Grey Knights in particular have to be superior in every single area, to everyone, to ensure that absolutely no-one might get the ridiculous idea that a Non-Marine might actually be useful in such a game.

That we have countless novels, comics and the tabletop itself (including its fluff) using this very angle is all just a big mistake. Thankfully this RPG is way better at portraying Space Marines than their creators from GW... right? ^.-

Firstly, must every post you make be a rant about how everyone but you is blaspheming against the canon? You might consider it sacred and beyond reproach, but some of us actually enjoy being able to choose for ourselves.

Lynata said:

An Inquisitor can obtain the best equipment they personally are able to obtain. That doesn't give them free reign to take whatever they want from anybody - you'd be hard-pressed to find an Inquisitor with his own Titan, no matter how much he wanted one.

Some things can't be bought or commissioned, nor will they be given over solely because someone commands it. Anyone with any sort of true power tries to keep something for themselves, whether it's the plethora of advanced techologies the Mechanicus don't tell the Imperium about or have absolute control over (Titans, Ordinati, more efficient patterns of starship lances that would make Battlecruisers a redundant concept... and who knows how much more), the varations and modifications the Blood Angels have made to their Rhino variants... or about 90% of the Grey Knights armoury, which are (according to the new Codex, obtained either under secret pacts with Mars, or created solely by the Grey Knights own Techmarines).

Infinite authority does not permit an Inquisitor to obtain a laspistol on an uninhabited desert world - his authority cannot overcome matters of availability.

Lynata said:

The book doesn't have to stick to your particular expectations at all. The stats for Astartes equipment (that is, the Bolt Pistol, Thunder Hammer and 'Astartes Power Armour' in Purge the Unclean) in DH are a one-off, written as a test as much as anything else (from comments made by TS Luikart, who wrote those rules). Or do you have no concept of the evolution of game mechanics?

Rules change, just as background does - whether or not you personally like or accept it - and what was published in one book may well be invalidated by later publications and the decisions that led to those changes. I have, contrary to your intransigent and all-too-frequently-stated beliefs, seen nothing to suggest that a different approach will be used for Astartes wargear in any of the 40kRP lines.

Lynata said:

An opinion you're welcome to.

I, personally, find myself despairing of the quality of the background in more recent codices and their tendency to produce what appears more like superficial heroics and teenage power fantasies, and am more and more inclined to look to sources such as Forge World's Imperial Armour books, Black Library's catalogue, and FFG's material (most of what I've written for them thus far is rules; the background is left in the hands of people who really know what they're doing, like Andy Chambers and Andrew Hoare), while referring to any one element only as one part of a much larger whole to try and form something coherent rather than slavishly devoted to the words in the Codices.

Lynata said:

Does writing a Codex automatically promote your writing to a level equivalent to gospel, regardless of all other factors?

Lynata said:

"Their creators from GW" are getting fewer in number; very few of those who originally defined any of the forces or factions in 40k are still developing things for GW. You might regard anything that comes out of GW as being the One True Canon regardless of who wrote it or what it actually says, but there are more than a few of us who aren't too fond of that approach and are inclined to be more circumspect about the whole matter.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Well, the canon, AKA the Dark Heresy and Deathwatch rulebooks, does say explicitly that Astartes weapons are better!

Case closed. Second Edition Witch Hunters Codex written in cuneiform in ancient Babylonian shown to be totally irrelevant.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Being part of a minority does not make me stand alone. Aside from that, maybe you have missed how the discussion started. Or am I simply not permitted to post opinions or react to criticism anymore for the sake of "keeping the peace"?

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Absolutely. It does not have to stick to yours either, though. What I did was post what I am hoping for when it comes to this book. Apparently that was wrong.

There is one thing I am guilty of: Part of me knew that such a post would devolve into yet another of those debates right after I sent it. I've grown to know how parts of the community here work, just like you think you know how I am ticking. So, in retrospect: it was a dumb idea. I should've just left the thread uncommented. Certain users do not value my comments at all (to put it politely), and neither do I really believe that my posts in this thread would have any chance of affecting the development of this book. I should have just leaned back and simply waited for the release.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Depends on your interpretation. We have already seen official comments from both the head of publishment as well as authors writing for BL distinguishing between studio and licensee material, so personally, I believe it does. The interview you yourself have linked was quite insightful on that part.

Lynata said:

Well, seeing as the Black Carapace is how the armor is directly linked to the marines nervous system for control. Read any description of the Black Carapace.

Here's Lexicanum's text taken from a White Dwarf:

Black Carapace

Phase 19: The most distinctive implant, it resembles a film of black plastic that is implanted directly beneath the skin of the Marine's torso in sheets. It hardens on the outside and sends invasive neural bundles into the Marine's body. After the organ has matured the recipient is then fitted with neural sensors and interface points cut into the carapace's surface.1 This allows a Space Marine to interface directly with his Power Armour.

The idea that a suit of armor, purpose built for Astartes with a Black Carapace, would have multiple redundant control interfaces is silly. And for you of all people to quote a comic book as a source of fluff.....I am shocked.

I know what the Black Carapace is, thankyou. My question was referring to the armour . Because I have not seen any source to date confirming what you theorized. And from your argumentation it seems this is still the case.

And who said anything about redundancy? For what it's worth, you just need to insert an MIU connector at the place where the "rods" for the Carapace would normally be. And before you say anything, yes, MIUs are in fact capable of moving something like power armour (in fact, they were considered for the Sororitas at one point as well before the Ministorum decided to go for pressure sensors due to MIUs meaning greater dependence on the AdMech), just probably not to the same degree of finesse.

Your "rewiring" of the entire armour would of course be another option, though much more time-consuming and potentially sacrificing some internal space (so maybe the waste processor has to go). I don't see why "all that is good" about the suit would be lost, but I know that this debate would lead nowhere due to principle and, shall we say, differences in perception. If you think that "all that is good" only refers to the greater level of mobility, though, then I would agree.

ItsUncertainWho said:

What's the difference between a graphic novel, a novel, and these RPG books? Though neither of them is studio material they are all licensed publications - or is it just because this is one of those products that throw a tiny wench into some people's argumentation, thus automatically "deemed heretical"?

You know what, let's just agree to disagree. We both know this will lead nowhere. And all that stuff has nothing to do with the topic at hand, anyways.

Sorry for double-post, but it does seem as if the forum limits the option to edit posts to a certain timeframe.

When I first read about giving players the option of being Grey Knights in a WH40k game, my first thought was "and there I was thinking that Deathwatch makes the munchkins happy...". I know a couple of players who would dig this kind of campaign. What's better than being a genetically enhanced super soldier with bad ass power armour and a gun that basicaly fires rockets instead of bullets? Having all the above and psychic powers as well.

vandimar77 said:

I´m glad I´m not the only one who thought so. But then again, Spess Mahriines are already ridiculusly overpowered so why not make them psykers as well.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Much though I don't want to get involved in this arguement I can't resist a bit of pointless technical speculation. Doesn't that all mean that you'd need some kind of direct control method rather than it just working in response to movement like other suits of power armour. If it's reading input from attachments in the black carapace is their anything that says you couldn't tinker with it to work with a MIU instead.

Now I know the source is Horus Heresy, which on a whole seems to be on an epic scale, but there is a description of the Space Wolves moving as a whole more like a think fluid down a wall than a bunch of simians, graceful, liquid and deadly.

Marines can be agile, even graceful in their power armours because of the neural interface, sisters less so even if they are wearing a lighter version of it. now I don't mind that the Adepta have lighter armour, thats ok, it makes sense, shes half the size of a marine, its that shes armed with a "civilian" bolter weapon... Now that I find silly, the bolter is supposed to be a primitive weapon, brutal and efficient, its the ammo thats complex, but still easily made if you have the materials for it.

As for GK's, well they are as far as I read them anyway the post humans post human. Hexagrammic wards engraved into their bones, access to wargear that even heroes of other chapters can only dream of. Now in order to fit in the setting they will most likely be comparable to DW marines, remember that the guys sent to the watch are the best and the brightest of their chapters sent to garner knowledge and learn. both from the watch and their brother marines from other chapters, would be heroes on the fast track, not "just" an Astartes.

*walks off mumbling to himself*

Lynata said:

ItsUncertainWho said:

The Black Carapace doesn't make a marine any faster in armor, it just makes the armor respond with nerve impulses in a much faster way than any other interface. Thus making Astartes much more graceful in their armor than say a bunch of bleach blond trollops who attach cones to the front of her armor to feel more feminine.

Exactly. Sadly, the representation in DW is a bit flawed, given that it just makes Marines less likely to be hit even when they're standing perfectly still. In any case, all of that does not apply to Terminator suits - regardless of whether they're worn by normal people or a bunch of abhuman ogres who attach fur to their armour to feel more masculine.

ItsUncertainWho said:

The only thing like this I can recall is in Storm of Iron , and that is a whole different ball of wax and doesn't count.

Without a Black Carapace there is no way at all to move a suit of Astartes armor. The armor would have no way to know that you moved your leg or arm and all those little spikes that interface with the Black Carapace would hurt something awful when you clamped that armor shut.

Never heard of Storm of Iron - why does that not count? In any case, it's not the only occurrence - Inquisitor Grinn in Daemonifuge was masquerading as a Black Templar, too.

And of course you can move a suit of Astartes armour without a Black Carapace, you only have to rewire its servos to an alternative means of input. MIUs, pressure-sensors, nerve-electro-sensors, ... Power armour is power armour, and the basic technology behind it is the same. As I said, the only drawback would be that you won't move as "graceful".

Oh wait, so the novels are a valid source now? But only when they back you up...?

And all the ones where Marines are described as wiping out armies in their thousands are just macho, over-hyped, exaggerations?

The fact of the matter is, just because all Power Armour has a 3+ save on the Tabletop means absolutely nothing! in the context of the RPG, because they're not going to introduce overcomplicated and nonsensical rules to represent that Astartes armour actually is better. There's not going to be some ridiculous rule requiring you to re-roll any 3's for non-Astartes power armour, needing to get a 4+ to have actually saved. That's the kind of crazy stuff they were trying to move away from after 2nd edition.

Oh, and there IS 'official GW fluff' backing this up, if you really insist on relying on something that doesn't exist, because there's absolutely no tiers of officialness like there are with other settings' IP. In the old Inquisitor book Space Marine armour provides more protection and comes with a number of built in systems that 'civilian' power armour (remember that YOU keep using that word, not us). Not to mention that Space Marines also had a Toughness at least twice that of a normal human, and strength 4-5 times their. How's that for "official" GW fluff?

But that all probably doesn't count, because nothing that interferes with your opinions about the game is ever allowed to count. Maybe if you closed the Forum Arguements Handbook and quit cribbing notes from the chapter on sleazy tricks we could have a reasonable discussion about this and many other things, but I seriously doubt that.

I don't understand this discussion anymore.

Are you saying that inquisitors can't move if they wear a power armor!?