The forum seems to have issues again...

"Oh wait, so the novels are a valid source now? But only when they back you up...?"

If you cannot resist flaming instead of ignoring me as you once wanted I would greatly appreciate the effort of at least reading the entire conversation before posting.

"In the old Inquisitor book Space Marine armour provides more protection and comes with a number of built in systems that 'civilian' power armour (remember that YOU keep using that word, not us). Not to mention that Space Marines also had a Toughness at least twice that of a normal human, and strength 4-5 times their. How's that for "official" GW fluff?"

Oh, suddenly that stuff counts in your eyes, yes? Does that also include the bolt weapon stats which were identical for both Space Marines and everyone else?

The "Inquisitor" rules make no difference between different kinds of power armour such as Light or Heavy variants, and Non-Marine versions that have indeed officially been described in fluff texts as possessing an equal armoured protection do not appear at all, so what exactly are you referring to? That is neither new information nor does it retcon anything.

Oh, and the 'civilian' term for equipment is not something I came up with, by the way. It was introduced by the Black Industries authors to distinguish between stuff used by Spess Mehreens and everyone else. That it only popped up once doesn't change that - in the eyes of some - there seems to be something inherently wrong about how that particular writer perceived the setting.

"Oh, and there IS 'official GW fluff' backing this up, if you really insist on relying on something that doesn't exist, because there's absolutely no tiers of officialness like there are with other settings' IP."

Tell that to George Mann, Head of GW Publishing. He seems to think differently. Gav Thorpe also had a blog entry where he talked about the various "interpretations" of the setting and had drawn a clear line between BL and Studio works: http://mechanicalhamster.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/jumping-the-fence/

Here's something interesting, too; this very RPG franchise gets mentioned as well:
http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.php?showtopic=206072

Scroll to post #5 - though the entire thread there seems worthwhile reading and somewhat eye-opening for all of us (yes, myself included).

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"Are you saying that inquisitors can't move if they wear a power armor!?"

Ah, that part of the discussion was referring to Astartes armour, which (probably) lacks the conventional standard interface in favor of connecting directly to the Black Carapace in the Marine's back. Given that an Inquisitor doesn't have something like that, modifications would be in order to make the suit work. We were or are merely in discord as to whether such modifications can be done or not.

Storhamster said:

Except that's not what a "munchkin" is. But I'm not surprised you both got it wrong, since Munchkin is a word that has slid more and more out of use with the gaming population, in the last several years.

Liking Deathwatch doesn't make you a Munchkin in the context of Deathwatch, because IN MY OPINION it accurately represents the power level of Space Marines relative to other stuff in the 40K universe.

No, a Munchkin would be the person who wants a Storm Bolter not because they think it's thematically cool, or have a good reason for their backstory, but because it's the most mechanically optimum choice of ranged weapon for their character. In fact, it really applies to any piece of equipment. When you're gearing up, the munchkin is the guy who tries to play the system so he can get the best equipment available. They care more about stats than story.

And don't gimme any nonsense about Deathwatch not being able to tell a fun, interesting, and complex story.

On the subject of civilian... So what you're saying is, it's a word that you gleefully take out of context because you love how it diminishes any arguement in favour of it? As opposed to the more reasonable and accurate "mortal".

And if you have Inquisitor, you can flip to the section on the actual Space Marine, where it will tell you how he has Power Armour that is upgraded with additional ablative armour, and several other upgrades. And nevermind the Bolter thing, if you can pick and choose material from your sources, then why can't I?

And if I wanted to flame you Lynata you'd know it. This is just me getting mad because I can't stand the smell of BS that consistently wafts from your posts on subjects like this (now THAT is flaming). Where you pick and choose your way through the fluff, only ever considering something valid as long as it backs you up. Because that's how it is with the novels and comics. You consistently talk about how they're not official, how the codices are the most valid of sources and should be looked at before anything else. But should some material found in such a source back you up, suddenly the origin of it is a non-issue. I have many threads that I can pull examples from if you like? Of this and more. One I can quickly call to mind is when you made up an explanation for something, for why it might be the way it is fluff/mechanics wise, and this was perfectly alright. When you did it, when me and others were going for 5+ pages trying to hammer out just why Space Marine Bolters were better than mortal ones, you couldn't even be bothered to respond to our comments, instead just continuing your rant. You've also been known to show a lack of familiarity for some of the things you talk about, even going so far as to say yourself that you haven't read something, but still consider whatever comments you make to be completely correct. I've been doing this forum thing for quite a few years now, and I can say without the slightest reservation that you're using alot of the dirty tricks that I've seen people use in the past.

But I can understand some of it. You don't like the changes being made to the game. You can tell this much from the fact that you consider the 12 year old figure of 30,000 Sisters of Battle to be accurate just because it hasn't been explicitely retconned, likewise with 10,000 Storm Troopers. I can sympathise, as I don't like things like Rhinos suddenly becoming rare and hard to build, or the Astronomicon 'flickering' just because of the need to emphasise that everyone in 40K is doomed (even though the Imperium has managed to last 10,000 years and certainly won't fall in a day). Sisters are taking an implicit nerf, along with everything else, in the face of how good Space Marines really are, because we finally have a game that doesn't have to concern itself with whether everything is reasonably balanced with each other accross the tabletop. That said, I'll freely admit that Space Marines are overpowered in some ways, mostly when it comes to equipment (Heavy Bolters, Storm Bolters, other things, not regular Bolters though), but not at all as much as some people around here accuse them of being.

Armour wise it just makes sense that a guy is on average 600 kg of post-human, bio-engineered madness would be wearing a heavier armour than a 70 kg woman who's "only" special defence against the darkness is her near psychotic faith in the emperor, simply put, he can carry a hell of a lot more than she can. Weapons wise however it makes little or no sense that the adepta are not equipped with the "big boy" bolter. Recoil compensation and power armour (even the light one) should make up for her "lack" of physicality, the sisters have been deployed against marines on more than a few occasions, but the civilian bolter wouldn't even dent a marines armour let alone hurt him.

Vandire era.

The siege on Earth has shown how sisters are better fighters than space marines.

If we're talking Marines vs Sister, wouldn't (following DW ruleset) Sisters be used in hordes against marines?

If so The Sisters Bolter (1d10+5X Pen4) would be hurting alot on DW marines. Also you should take into account that Sister would probably have a few Horde Traits which would make them pretty beast compared to most Horde Units in DW.

Blood Pact said:

Have you actually noticed that it wasn't me who had thrown that term into this thread?

Aside from that I don't see how it can be taken out of context when the writers have used it in this very sense. The term "mortal" isn't exactly more reasonable either - they've just jumped to this one because it sounds "softer" than what they used before, without changing their attitude about it. How about simply sticking to what Studio material officially provided? Just my opinion/preference, of course. I can understand that/why a lot of people are quite pleased with the direction whoever was responsible for that part has taken this RPG to.

Blood Pact said:

Yes. And again, what does that change? Are you implying that normal power armour cannot have a built-in commlink or a rebreather now? As I said, the power armour in "Inquisitor" is an extremely generic one that really shouldn't serve as a template for everything available to the Inquisition, especially when we already have other Studio material of the same era saying otherwise. Different types of power armour have different degrees of protection and various upgrades. I do not find it at all hard to believe that Astartes armour is of a higher grade than most, but that doesn't mean it's the only one. What makes the combination of Marine and his armour so impressive is the Black Carapace, which has zero relevance to the actual level of plating. The latter is entirely a question of the pattern. The mere existence of non-Astartes Terminator armour is proof enough for that, seeing that the transition between armour types is a fluid one.

Blood Pact said:

As long as you're admitting it?

As to your criticism: I'm less about "picking and choosing", I'm generally prioritizing Studio material over BL/BI/FFG stuff. As do Steven Mann and Gav Thorpe. Do note that I pulled Daemonifuge as a counter argument to the Grey Knights omnibus that was mentioned here - as an example that this kind of material should not be seen in the same light as Studio material. Graver got it right: How badass someone is there depends entirely on the author and whether they're the protagonist or not. And I hope you can agree that this doesn't exactly make good grounds for reliable comparison.
Playing the same card doesn't necessarily make me believe in it, just like you have just done with the "Inquisitor" material. It's all about the context.

Blood Pact said:

Is that so, yes? I can also perfectly remember having called you out to provide proof for your slanderous claims in that other thread, yet you remained silent. I wonder why that was. Perhaps you should not throw stones out of a glass house, mhm?

I've now given up on the entire bolter argument (and please - don't claim that I didn't respond to any comments, I can perfectly remember the "quotewar" that was going on in that 30-pages-thread) because I've grown tired of repeating the same thing over and over again only to have people apparently ignore those points that were "inconvenient" for their opinion, and because I find it far easier to just wait a year until the new Codex will provide undisputable(?) proof. This will also make for a much peaceful forum, I hope. And don't worry, I won't bother the Deathwatch forum anymore at all. Deal?

-----

Sebashaw said:

Well, to be fair, they had one massive advantage. I would assume the Imperial Palace would be comparatively easy to defend even when massively outnumbered.

Bassemandrh said:

Horde rules can make anything dangerous, but they also make anything easy to kill off. When using them, the difference between Sisters and Guardsmen isn't that big there, regardless of whether you're looking at weapon efficiency (6 pts) or armour protection (3 pts). Due to the magnitude's effect on the dice, 30 Guardsmen will invariably be better than 20 Sisters. Or 9 Marines, for that matter.

Some people have suggested some changes to how to work with Horde rules beyond the RAW, though. It's not like these rules are "bad", I'd just say they depend entirely on the type of enemy you want to use - though you can tweak a lot with houserules. I have to say, I've grown to like their basic idea, and I hope to see a refined version in "Only War".

Blood Pact said:

Except that's not what a munchkin is either, but I'm not surprised you got it wrong since "munchkin" is a word that has been abused by the gaming community for quite a few years now.

The one and only thing you got right was the fact that liking Deathwatch dose indeed not make one a munchkin. Whether you think Deathwatch is an accurate representation of a marine's power level compared to other things in the 40k universe or what i think of the cover art is completely irrelevant.

No, a munchkin probably wouldn't want a stormbolter at all -they tend to like happier and more colorful things. Munchkins also really don't care much about stats; they prefer a good story or song instead. In fact, they seem to prefer story and song to numerical efficacy even while engaged in one of their most famed pastimes -giving road directions. They will go on and on with elaborate song and dance numbers to give the simplest of directions sometimes taking a full minute to tell a traveler that all they need to do is take a certain road and remain on it until they've arrived at their desired destination.

If your going to correct someone, get it right and go all the way.

UncleArkie said:

I assume that if Sisters are sent against Marines, they will be specially equipped, such as with Kraken rounds, which will hurt Marines. A lot.

bogi_khaosa said:

Mhmm, as per the Chapter Approved TT stuff, such special ammunition is only available to Deathwatch Kill Teams.

In general, I always thought it would fit that (aside from Inquisitors) only Marines would have access to multiple types of bolt munitions, as (unlike the Sisters) their entire equipment always seems to be geared towards optimum efficiency regardless of the circumstances. Though this kind of belief stems from my personal perception of the Marines' superiority coming from their versatility and adaptability instead of a supposed monopolistic superiority of Astartes equipment as proclaimed by some.

bogi_khaosa said:

No not really. They are equipped with their Faith as well as their normal kit. Thats enough usually, though liberally applying melta fire doesn't hurt either. In the TT I can't really say how awesome Divine Guidance really is with its ability to make stuff AP1. i can turn a Battle Sister squad into a Monstrous Creature killer too though Exorcists usally work better.

Lynata said:

Oh hardly! When posters put "civilian" in front of something it's practically to mock the very idea of it (look up "civilian terminator armour" from earlier in this thread, or your own use of "civilian" bolters). But "Mortal" is actually accurate because you cannot call Space Marines humans anymore, in anything but the most general terms. These are guys who can crush skulls with a single bare hand, live for hundreds of years. Compared to them, the average human is quite accurately called a "mortal". These ain't the days where Space Marines are just a bunch of punk convicts. But no, "civilian" is sooo official because it was used once in an offhand way by one of the writers.

Lynata said:

Funny, cause I remember you complaining about exactly that. That because it's all 3+ on the tabletop, then it should have the same protective qualities in the RPG. But to the matter at hand, you're assuming that Inquisitors and their minions automatically get the best stuff, something equal to Astartes armour, which is presumptuous at best. Remember that we're dealing with a regime where little things like oaths and restriction of technology actually mean something. The Mechanicus isn't standing around with a sly grin saying, "Oh suuuuure , we'll keep this technology for the exclusive use of you and the other Space Marines. Wink wink, nudge nudge." Of course it helps that the Space Marines are some of the last people in the galaxy you want to piss off. And getting back to my point, most Acolytes aren't going to be important enough to merit the more advanced types of Power Armour available. They're going to get stuck with the kind of stuff that's in Rogue Trader, that needs to recharge after 1d5 hours.

Lynata said:

You're right about how every book tries to make the main characters of it seem to be awesome. But even there, there's different levels of it, of how badass they are. Gaunt and his Ghosts, while having some pretty spectacular feats to their name, don't go duelling Daemon Princes one on one, or assault armies of thousands with only 100 men. They're awesome for regular humans, but only up to par at best when relative to Space Marines. Similarly, Zygmunt Molotch is the nemesis of Gideon Ravenor and a major threat to the Imperium of Man, but he's not really a threat to Space Marines in a physical way, despite taking down an Inquisitor and his personal retinue with nothing but a couple blades and his Cognitae tricks, I'd give him one kill (especially if they weren't wearing a helmet) but no more than that before the Sergeant took his chainsword and split him like a piece of kindling. Even in the fluff, and such questionable sources as the novels, Space Marines are still head and shoulder above the rest.

Lynata said:

Claiming that the composition and length of a bullet effects its lethality as much as the width is slanderous now? And those were the bits that you never commented on, meaning they weren't in the quote boxes. A fact that made them stand out by their lack of appearance. If you don't remember any of that stuff though, I won't be mad. You consistently ignored it all throughout that thread anyway. That if an Astartes bolt shell was longer than a mortal one it could contain a larger mass-reactive explosive, or a heavier propellent charge which would give it a greater velocity. And this isn't even getting in to the quality of the materials used.

Yes, there's absolutely nothing to back that up. Myself and others were just trying to use logic and common sense to try and explain why Space Marine Bolters might actually be better than the mortal variety. But you'd have none of it.

At least until you tried using the same strategy to explain something to us. I think it was concerning the numbers of Sisters of Battle, I don't remember exactly, but N0-1-H3R3 might.

Blood Pact said:

As for the "mortal" thing - their own Codex calls Marines mortals as well. Anything else would be implying immortality, hence my opinion that this term is just as misleading, though not as "mocking" as the old one.

The RPG has gone out of its way to introduce a disparity that did not exist before. Some people do not like this particular interpretation of the setting. Some of those mock it by remembering everyone of the "civilian" incident. Deal with it.

Blood Pact said:

I have repeatedly stated that TT stats are not to be taken literally, though I still believe that their general scaling should be respected.

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

Blood Pact said:

• Bolt Length: We have official examples/images for bolt rounds. It cannot really get any shorter, at least not in a way that would halve the damage. There is also no reason to change projectile length.
• Composition: The one and only theorized difference I was unable to debunk. As I have admitted, before you again wrongfully claim I never said so. Still contradicted by pre-RPG Codex fluff, though, but if you think FFG can retcon GW this will have no meaning. This was the option I have mentioned in the other thread as the "most likely explanation", even though I still do not agree with it (both due to the personal preferences you pointed out as well as due to the origin of this entire issue, i.e. "level of canonicity").

Do note I only list them here for the sake of providing something you have apparently missed. I have no intention whatsoever to get into that argument again as it will lead nowhere.

And slanderous? No, those claims were not slanderous at all. That remark was referring to our little "debate" on the Black Crusade forum. If you require a reminder, you can read it up here on page 5, post #65.

You know, with each of us continuously claiming one is ignoring the other, I cannot help but think that our entire discussion can be summed up as " NO U ". It was utterly unproductive, which was why I guess we both stopped argueing. I'd be thankful if we could simply part ways once more, as I have no intention to see this start up here again. But if you really have to continue your way, go ahead and further claim I'd be oh-so-ignorant of the wisdom you spout off with every post and chastise me for not believing in your ultimate truth. Who knows, maybe I will have the strength of will to be ignorant enough to not react at all for a change.

I hate to get into the middle of these things, but all it takes is either one of you to stop responding for the argument to be over.

GW has contradictory canon, go with whatever version makes your group happy.

andrewm9 said:

If you were the Ecclesiatchy, and you were going up against the Angels of Death, would you

a) specially prepare

or

b) just do what you would do if you fighting a bunch of gangers?

deinol said:

The problem is whoever tries to stop it that way takes the risk of looking like they are conceding.

bogi_khaosa said:

B: just for the utter disrespect and contempt factor alone ;-p

bogi_khaosa said:

My point is that the Sisters are already specially prepared having trained for stuff like this. At no point have we ever seen Sisters use Kraken rounds in any fluff. Its one of those points I'd be perfectly willing to concede to Space Marine fans. Only space marines use Kraken and Hellfire rounds (the sole exception being the Vindicare).

Fenrisnorth said:

Duty Calls: http://xkcd.com/386/

The funny thing is, I knew what picture that would have to be before clicking on it...

But you're right. It's kind of embarassing, really. Let's just move on.

Sweet Jeebus, a fourth thread yelling about Sm vs. SoB bolters?! I know I should just walk away, but... I... can't... help... myself...

Blood Pact said:

Sure, it "makes sense" that SM boltguns would do more damage than mortal-scaled versions, if WH40KRP was the first time that boltguns ever appeared . But it isn't. The complaint isn't that the RPG's interpretation doesn't make sense on it's own terms, it's that it contridicts almost three decades of source material that says that there is no (or very little) difference between bolters, and thus, it seems to me that the RPG's adaptation of the setting is in error. I mean, logically, wearing a heavy suit of armour, powered by a large, bulky power plant attached to the back, would cause some kind of Agility penalty; however, the tabletop game has long established that Space Marines are more agile than normal humans despite their armour, so the established backgroud trumps common sense in adapting the setting...

In looking over the entry on Astartes weapons in the Inquisitor's Handbook , I came across a statement that "mortal boltguns" are produced for the Imperial Guard. Wrong - in no version of the game/novels/comics/etc. do IG use boltguns! Even the elite Storm Troopers have to make due with Hellguns. So, if the RPG got this wrong, and this is presented as justification for the two radically different power levels, then why should I accept that they didn't get the power levels wrong, too?

Aren't boltguns and bolt pistols options for Guard Commanders and squad leaders? I think that's where they're found.

From what I am used to, bolt pistols were fancied by Commissars and some Guard Officers because of what they represent. Boltguns I can only remember seeing in the hands of some of the tougher Arbites Enforcers as a heavier alternative to the combat shotgun. IIRC, bolters were described as being simply too heavy, too complex in function, and too depending on a steady supply chain for the Guard - though there may have been some individual exceptions. Last Chancers, perhaps?

[edit] nvm, boltguns can also be taken by Commissars and Officers as an armoury selection - non-standard, though.

But pleeaaase, no return to the dreaded bolter debate. :/

Lyn, I will PERSONALLY smuggle you a 2d10+5 Pen 5 Tearing Boltgun with 30 clips of specialty ammo, if you get me an appropriately awesome Eviscerator! (and by that, I mean is a chainfist, like they are supposed to be =P)

Lynata said:

Agreed.

(**** quote/edit feature)

andrewm9 said:

My point is that the Sisters are already specially prepared having trained for stuff like this. At no point have we ever seen Sisters use Kraken rounds in any fluff. Its one of those points I'd be perfectly willing to concede to Space Marine fans. Only space marines use Kraken and Hellfire rounds (the sole exception being the Vindicare).

Actually, I'd concede that other Imperial offices have access to special ammunition (probably not stuff like Vengeance rounds), at least in limited quantities, for 'special occasions'.

As I am slowly dragging my miserable arse towards hurling the players into Ascended levels after many years of comparatively comfortable play in the GM's fuzzy-happy area where I can still have some gangers on cranked up drugs probably severely hurt a couple of them with an autogun. Things where inevitably going to change where I'd probably have to shoot at them with bolt guns more often, bury them under a mire of moral quandries, political responsibility and harrowing investigations into the dim, darkness of Calixis sectors many problems.

Lifes already fairly tough for me as a GM, life is also going to become even tougher if you're a PC. So you'd think they'd throw me a couple of bones to help support things. Last weekend I thought someone was joking when one of them piped up with "CAN I PLAY A GREY KNIGHT?" Haha, ah yes. Very funny like that time you asked me if you could play a temple assassin that dodges everything, all the time and armed with a howitzer and I told you very succinctly "not f**king likely". Now back to doing your job purging a planet of its mutants and heretics, you little acolyte rascals.

Its not like I'm inordinately mean to them (...all the time), they're already lumbered with a fair chunk of responsibility on a political and administrative level, however that also means that I don't really have to worry about them running around with masses of heavy weapons or wearing much more than carapace. When things get a little slow (or extremely violent) in DH land, I've got some custom-built Space Marine Scouts which are aiming to become Deathwatch and will form part of their "assets so to speak" for when **** really gets out of hand and you really do need a genetic freak in big armour that is carrying an ungodly amount of firepower...

However, I dont want the same said freak running around all the time near the DH PC's. I've played and run a lot of the DW stuff and basically, its not complete ****, but it really is a whole new level of violence and what I like to call the "hurr-derp" factor where I don't really expect them to do a lot of problem solving aside from leave a trail of smoking corpses because they dont have a lot of skills, they're pretty cookie-cutter animals that just do what it says on the can. What is says on the can, is kill every motherf**king thing with a huge gun and anything that crawls out of that hail of bolter shells gets the living **** kicked out of it with sharp/pointy/blunt objects.

Sometimes thats needed to prove a point!

I've tried the ascended next to Deathwatch and to be honest, it just doesn't work no matter how much I try to squeeze that ugly fat bastard marine into the little hole that is Dark Heresy. If he's following DH characters around, he stands out like an 8ft sore thumb and when he gets there, he's really not going to do anything but beat the **** out of things and thats often not needed. Likewise, I've tried the DH character in a DW group and they're basically the really smart guy that cant do anything to the masses of ravening hordes that you need to seriously challenge a marine squad, chances are they'll collect a couple of stray rounds and get turned into gibblets without really doing anything but run around with pom-poms looking cute.

At the crux of the problem, nothing really bothers marines, they're insanely tough, not scared of anything and beat the **** out of things really well. The other side of the coin is Dark Heresy acolytes is that they're smart, adaptable, well resourced, independant... but scared of most everything and the melta gun it takes to crack a space marine and make him wince, will just burn a fate point off a DH character and turn them into ash.

So if I was to roll out Ascended next to a Grey Knight, he's basically going to need daemonic tank round to even remotely worry him and everyone else will be on the ground dribbling, shitting themselves and dead from the shrapnel that mildly annoyed the marine... its just not going to be much fun for fairly much everyone else, including me.