Maybe I'm not as up on the history of the Grey Knights as I could be, but I pictured them as being an expansion for Deathwatch, not Dark Heresy. I'm thrilled to see the rules coming out with Daemon Hunter, but is this the same drastically powerful marines that are being presented in the Grey Knights codex?

Thanks,

CW

My impression is that Grey Knights will stand with Ascension level Dark Heresy. How different the rules for these vs Deathwatch Marines is questionable. I suspect they will be like DW marines, but we'll have to wait for the book to release to tell.

If your DH campaign faces daemons, Grey Knights might fit in quite well. Especially if you already have potent things like assassins and sisters of battle.

I suppose it comes down to what kind of gear the Grey Knights will use (there is a difference of 2AP and 1d10 damage between armour and weapons from DH Astartes to DW Astartes), or will be made available to the Acolytes. Given that the supplement is primarily meant for DH, I do expect (read: hope for) the new careers to "fit in", although they will still be remarkably more resilient than ordinary humans simply by virtue of being Marines.

The book will also feature a small section that deals with incorporating Grey Knights into DW games, which could incorporate rules about boosting their gear to the level of DW narration style so that there's something for everybody.

If the book should instead follow the DW approach I don't see anyone sans Assassins and Psykers having much fun, strict non-combat classes left aside.

I agree with Lynata, Grey Knights are made for Dark Heresy, with ADDITIONAL rules for Deathwatch.

I don't understand why anyone thinks Grey Knights will be "balanced" in any way. They are Grey Knights. They are superman among supermen. If they aren't completely over the top I think they will fail in implementing them. These are the guys who take down big daemons single handedly after all.

ItsUncertainWho said:

You mean just like Inquisitors and other HQ choices or novel heroes? The kind of characters that we get to play?

The only disparity I see is in the toughness and melee department, which would make these Grey Knights perfect for playing vanguard. That shouldn't render other characters useless, though, if they are still able to do their thing and contribute to the group's goal. Which would require a certain degree of equality in equipment like it exists in GW's fluff.

I can already see the fans going into shock about the Grey Knights being made "too weak" because of this, but think about who it is they're teaming up with. At that level (I too presume we're talking Ascension here) this won't be Guardsman Joe and his Scum friend.

Lynata said:

Lets see, Grey Knights exclusively hunt daemons, are all psykers, and Astartes. Almost all of their equipment is relic level and exclusive to them. This doesn't take away the fact that an Inquisitor or other ascension level character has far more influence and power, as well as a much larger skill pool. It's just that the idea of making a Grey Knight "balanced" in combat when compared to an Inquisitor is rather absurd.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Curiously it seems to work just fine in the TT and in the novels. In other words, everywhere else.

The equipment is by far not as "exclusive" as you make it look like - psycannons, force weapons and storm bolters are perfectly available to the Ordo Malleus as well, as are hexagrammic wards, blessed ammunition and other upgrades that could improve a Throne Agent's equipment. In general I am pretty sure that the Inquisition is able to procure much more exclusive equipment than a rank-and-file Battle Brother of the Grey Knights (because, no, those guys do not have their own relic each, unless you are using a severely inflated definition here).

Not that I am actually talking about a situation as it is represented in the TT and some novels - perhaps you misunderstand my notion of "balance" as complete equality in every aspect. This would be ridiculous. No, I am talking about everyone being able to feel useful and contribute to the game, even if it is "only" due to their weapons doing comparable damage whilst the characters remain more vulnerable. In short: Marines should still be better, but they would not make everyone else look like a redundant appendage. That better?

Lynata said:

Slightly better, but somewhat different than your previous stances.

The TT comparison is still, as always, irrelevant.

I don't see anyone armed with Nemesis Force Weapons outside of the Gk's. No other group has a forearm mounted stormbolter as standard issue equipment to every trooper not toting a heavy weapon.

As far as the novels, have you read the Grey Knight Omnibus? They are far from being equal to anyone.

Funny how compairing TT to DH is irrelevant, but compairing it to novels isnt. The novels were based on the TT.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Not really (unless I really sound a lot different than I intend). I often feel criticized for some rather extreme viewpoint that I supposedly hold when I was just discussing a single aspect, distorting what I was actually talking about. Remember the discussion about Sororitas equipment? No matter how many times I pointed out why the Marines are still superior in other areas (even providing a list!), there were half a dozen people flat out claiming I wanted to make SoB 100% equal to Astartes, which is something I would oppose just as much - were I a distrustful person I could assume that those were deliberate attempts to push me into some sort of extremist corner to disqualify my posts, but then again I've already seen several people not being able to read through my lengthy rants, so I'll assume they just got the wrong idea of what I was about.

Makes me wish this forum would have a chatroom so we could just have a talk instead of discussions getting blown out of proportions and people missing key points of someone's argument.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Not Nemesis Force Weapons, no - yet aside from the name (and their older models incorporating a bolt weapon), what is it that makes them special and unique from other Force Weapons? Why would other Force Weapons need to be inferior? Especially given that the real power of this weapon lies in its wielder, from how I understand them at least.
Forearm mounted stormbolters are not really a good argument either. Inquisitors do not wear standard issue equipment to begin with (something that likely applies to 90% of all Ascension characters), and we already have rules for exactly the same kind of weapon in DH.

In fact, Ascension characters may even end up sporting better equipment than rank-and-file Grey Knight Battle Brothers. Malleus Inquisitors can wear Terminator armour and carry psycannons, after all, on top of being a powerful psyker. And given that this RPG does not really adhere to details of GW's fluff all the time, we could even see Grey Knights trading their forearm-mounted stormbolter back to a normal boltgun like they had in the older editions, who knows...

ItsUncertainWho said:

No, I did not read that one, though I have read about it and thus know that the Grey Knights in said Omnibus have asked others to help them - so obviously such team-ups are far from impossible.

To sum it up: As long as DH combat characters are able to deal comparable damage, I don't see a problem with the Grey Knights sticking out with what makes them special - and that is primarily their abhuman resilience (resistance to demonic influence and psi-powers, too, but those are not as exclusive). In the end, this would only lead them to assume the role of the group's vanguard/escort/"tanks" whilst the other fighters just have to be more careful. Non-combat careers would shine in their own areas, anyways. It's as simple as that.

At least those are my thoughts on the subject.

Nimon said:

Nah, he is likely referring to TT stats and not the TT fluff, and in that he has a point. Of course it should not be forgotten that the novels differ wildly in depiction, too - the Grey Knights in Daemonifuge were a pale shadow of the ones in their Feature Omnibus ...

So maybe the DH version will have those and Deathwatch will get the Omnibus GKs?

Lynata said:

Well even so, the stats in the TT are the basis, or should be, for the qualities given to marines in the novels. As the years have gone by, and the many, many editions of the TT, there is a need to make the next batch bigger and stronger then the previous. Really, as I have said befor, this system really needs a 40k corebook with revised rules. Its hard to even compair Space Marines from DH(Granted it was only 1, but he is clearly on a smaller scale), then those in DW. So compairing a GK DH, to a GK DW is going to be equally difficult.

Nimon said:

Yeah, we have Temple Assassins (Who are, if anything, too weak until near the end!), who are superior to even Marines due to absolutely crazy levels of expensive modifications (Which is why they aren't in armies!)

I just hope the Deathwatch rules are good, not just a paragraph or two like the stuff in Rites of Battle about mixing games. It's already like tryingt o mix oWOD games (Especially ones not named Vampire and Werewolf) together to mix the games. So some good mix rules are desperately needed.

Nimon said:

I was indeed referring to using the TT stats as a basis for anything. TT stats have no real bearing on anything except the TT. The idea that the TT stats are any sort of accurate representation of the fluff is mind boggling to me. There are way to many people, IMO, that think the TT stats actually mean something other than how to compare one unit in a TT war game to another. If you actually look at what the stats and models represent on the TT you should be able to see that one model does not equal one soldier on the field of battle.

The movie marine stats that were published by GW were supposed to represent what marines are actually capable of. People like to ignore that when they start blathering on about how the TT is right. So what is more right, the TT stats as is or the stats that GW wrote that said this is how marines should be, but we wouldn't make any money if they were this way, so buy more models! ?

ItsUncertainWho said:

Actually, those stats were supposed to represents what Marines would be capable of if they would star in their own movie. Hence the name "Movie Marines", not "Real Marines" or "True Marines" or whatever. This is what people like to ignore.

I mean, have you even taken a look at the list?

"Thankfully, most people understand the concept of dramatic license, an amusing little technique that involves exaggerating or ignoring facts, physical laws and general plausability [...]"

I'm also pretty sure that the real Astartes do not use stunt doubles. If Marine fans have truly taken that list as an accurate depiction of the Space Marines that would explain a lot, though.

Where are people getting the idea that Inquisitors can fight Grey Knights on the table top. Inquisitors a slightly better humans in TT. A basic Grey Knight costs more than a basic Inquisitor in the new book. In a one on one fight I would expect a Grey Knight to kill the Inquisitor most of the time.

The TT game is scaled for playability. If they made things scaled according to background then you would field 15-20 marines in a 1500pt army which would be rubbish for marine sales and boring to use. Or they would scale back guardsmen and then make it so that you needed hundreds of them which is also unworkable. Its even more prevolant in fantasy where apparently armies are made up of less than 150 men on a regular basis.

There is no problem with the TT game not adhering to fluff, honestly it would suck if it did but claiming the TT units follow fluff when even reading the marine codex shows that they dont is a bit absurd.

Kaihlik

As someone who primarily plays Deathwatch but also has a Dark Heresy campaign on the side, I would have much preferred the Grey Knights rules being published in a Deathwatch supplement. Either that or they're published with stats according to the DW power level in a DH book with a blurb telling the GM of a DH game that by allowing a Grey Knight PC they'll significantly increase the power of the players, etc, etc. The worst case scenario would be some sort of lackluster page on how to convert DH stats to DW.

From a fluff perspective it would be a travesty for GKs to be "balanced" in combat with an unaugmented human given similar levels of weaponry. GK's aren't just marines, they're the absolute finest of the Imperium's military forces. We're talking about the same soldiers who banished Angron in the first war for Armageddon, who's Supreme Grand Master avenged his predecessor by carving his name on Mortarion's heart before banishing him, we're talking about the Marines that teleport into the absolute WORST of Daemonic infestations that would test the sanity of other marines and somehow come out on top. For GK's to have a power level anywhere below that of a Deathwatch kill marine would be absolutely farcical, let alone giving them a power level in line with an Inquisitor.

Not Nemesis Force Weapons, no - yet aside from the name (and their older models incorporating a bolt weapon), what is it that makes them special and unique from other Force Weapons? Why would other Force Weapons need to be inferior? Especially given that the real power of this weapon lies in its wielder, from how I understand them at least.
Forearm mounted stormbolters are not really a good argument either. Inquisitors do not wear standard issue equipment to begin with (something that likely applies to 90% of all Ascension characters), and we already have rules for exactly the same kind of weapon in DH.

In fact, Ascension characters may even end up sporting better equipment than rank-and-file Grey Knight Battle Brothers. Malleus Inquisitors can wear Terminator armour and carry psycannons, after all, on top of being a powerful psyker. And given that this RPG does not really adhere to details of GW's fluff all the time, we could even see Grey Knights trading their forearm-mounted stormbolter back to a normal boltgun like they had in the older editions, who knows...

Nemesis Force Weapons aren't regular force weapons. According to the 5th Ed Codex a Nemesis Force Sword is a blade of regular iron, inset with flecks of silver and inlaid with runes of Daemon-slaying. They are specialized weapons designed expressly for the purposes of slaying Daemons and Psykers and therefore not the same as regular force weapons.

As for forearm mounted Stormbolters, how is anyone who isn't of Astartes stature and in Astartes power armour supposed to fire a stormbolter fully automatic from one arm without seriously hurting themselves and spraying fire ineffectually in the general direction of their target? In game terms you need to be a Space Marine in power armour to fire basic weapons one handed without taking a huge negative modifier and I see nothing what-so-ever in Ascention or any other DH book that would allow a human to do so.

Sure, Inquisitors can wear Terminator Armour and carry a psy-cannon around. That doesn't mean that human scale terminator armour offers the same scale of protection as Astartes terminator armour since human scale power armour doesn't offer the same degree of protection as Astartes armour. We also know that Astartes weapons are far larger and more powerful so why would a Psycannon being carried by a human be as powerful as a Psycannon issued to a marine? As for giving Grey Knights regular bolters - the wrist mounted Stormbolter has become so iconic over the last two editions of 40K that to give them anything else would be like starting off Deathwatch characters with a lasrifle instead of a bolter. No one who wants to play a Grey Knight wants to play as some gimped, generic Astartes with a regular boltgun and regular force weapons.

No, I did not read that one, though I have read about it and thus know that the Grey Knights in said Omnibus have asked others to help them - so obviously such team-ups are far from impossible.

To sum it up: As long as DH combat characters are able to deal comparable damage, I don't see a problem with the Grey Knights sticking out with what makes them special - and that is primarily their abhuman resilience (resistance to demonic influence and psi-powers, too, but those are not as exclusive). In the end, this would only lead them to assume the role of the group's vanguard/escort/"tanks" whilst the other fighters just have to be more careful. Non-combat careers would shine in their own areas, anyways. It's as simple as that.

What exactly is "comparable damage" and why should the finest Space Marines do "comparable damage" to an Inquisitorial Stormtrooper? If Inquisitorial Stormtroopers could do "comparable damage" to Grey Knights, why would the Inquisition bother with the upkeep associated with maintaining a chapter with the best weapons and armour that the Mechanicus can provide? It doesn't make sense on any level for a Grey Knight to do "comparable damage" to a Stormtrooper or a Crusader or whatever. The weakeness of a Grey Knight in Dark Heresy terms should be that they're pretty much useless in any sort of investigatory capacity. Need to find a proscribed text? Not going to help. Need to go under cover? A two metre tall superhuman in shining power armour isn't going to improve your chances. Need to rally a crowd to your cause? Not going to help unless that crowd has a thing for warcries involving hammers. The way to balance a character like a GK in DH is the same way they balanced Orks in Rogue Trader - make them absolute monsters in combat but pretty much utterly useless outside of it. This goes back to how GKs in the book series ask other characters for help - they need help with combing through dusty librariums, they need help compiling reports and predicting where and when the enemy will strike next, they need help decoding the arcania of Daemonkind and how to defeat them through lore. They definitely don't need help killing things.

Disguise said:

What is a regular Force Weapon for you, then? From what I've read, they are constructed in much the same way, minus the focus on daemon- and psyker-slaying - that said, where does that one come from, anyways? Runes on the blade? Anyone can do that.

Disguise said:

Only in this RPG, not as per official GW fluff.

Disguise said:

Also wrong as per GW fluff.

Disguise said:

And for that they ask a bunch of Sisters Militant and the Imperial Guard? Sure, as if those will know anything about that.
At least the synopsis on Lexicanum definitively sounds much different from what you describe here.

Tl;dr: Some people seem pretty spoiled by the amounts of exaggerated badassery FFG has thrown at them with DW, whose item stats do not even compare to the Astartes in DH. The "Daemon Hunter" supplement needs only to stick closer to official studio material and we're set. The book also includes a section on how to convert these Grey Knights into your DW games, so what's the problem?

Lynata said:

The new codex tells us that Nemesis force weapons have a special Daemon-slaying property that isn't found on any other Force weapon i know of in the game. Then again, in the new codex, some Inquisitors can get access to Nemesis force weapons, but that could just be when going to war with GK as allies, or because making new weapons with similar effects of the various nemesis swiss army knives but without the Nemesis qualities would have wasted space. Also, I'd guess there is something of a secret recipe involved in the construction of the Nemesis Force Weapons that no one aside from a GK techmarine would ever, or will ever, know, else every Imperium force weapon would also have the ability to send a Daemon Prince screaming back to the warp after one blow. Regardless, they DO have unique rules in the tabletop, and are described as unique to the Grey Knights.

Also, your previous thread established only that previous GW fluff existed that implied "equal" weaponry and armor between SM and Sisters, it didn't establish that the most recent example of fluff doesn't override previous fluff examples (which, regarding canon, I believe it does), only that you felt it should based on the previous fluff. Since we've had this discussion before, please don't bring it up unless you've got a good reason why the most recent fluff doesn't override old, as far as official canon goes, or you've found a more recent example of fluff contradicting FFG's fluff.

Also, forearm mounted storm bolters are, to my knowledge, not allowed (more specifically, not possible) by either Dark Heresy nor Deathwatch, given that both systems are restricted IIRC to Pistols and possible the Aux Grenade Launcher.

Also, it is batshit insane for a Stormtrooper to match the combat capabilities of any Grey Knight that still has 3+ limbs. Fullstop.

Disguise said:

According to the RAW, as far as I know, all anyone needs to wield a Basic Bolter one handed is a recoil glove. It's found in DH pg 147.

Secondly, are you insinuating that we have civilian terminator armour now?

In the end, I agree with Lynata that a lot of folks are taking the exaggerated badassery of DW to heart and, in doing such, forgetting that any individual or group within the 40k universe has the potential to be over the top and stupidly bad ass according to the various fluff sources. If Space marines can be that bad ass, then so can Imperial Gaurdsmen -after all, an Inquisitorial killteam comprised of a mere 60 of them have taken out over a 1000 Chaos Space Marines while suffering only one casualty doing it. And Grey Knights don't have the market cornered in the going toe to toe with deamons and coming out ahead. Also according to the fluff, Imperial Guard snipers are able to go hand-to-hand with deamons and hoards of cultists and come out on top. In the end, how bad-ass or not bad-ass a particular individual or faction is depends only on two things: who the author is and whether they're the protagonist or not.

It's all just a matter of perspective and kind of story being told. That being the case, the perspective and narrative of DW and DH are different and, as such, different scaling should apply to each. In DW (the action game), the PC's (no matter who they are) should be crazy bad-ass heroes who kick ass and take names -appropriate scaling and precautions should be taken to insure this. In DH (the horror game) they get to (no matter who they are) fear for their lives, souls, and sanity on a regular basses until the uncaring universe drowns them in grimdark. Grey Knights along with the other Space Marines should be scaled differently to suit the different games and their respective focus and narrative.

Unusualsuspect said:

So, no problem for the Daemon Hunter supplement.

As for the bolter thingie: you're right - let's wait for the next source of fluff to override the idiocy again.

According to the RAW, as far as I know, all anyone needs to wield a Basic Bolter one handed is a recoil glove. It's found in DH pg 147.

I want the supplement to have rules for playing a Jokaero.

Graver said:

Best reply, I totally egree.

Civilian terminator, lol!

Sebashaw said:

You're laughing now. I still remember the idea of "civilian bolters" that was used to set Astartes weapons apart, in the very same DH sidebar that was the origin of this entire discrepancy.