longagoigo said:

1.) you CAN see the HEX. Also, for example, If there's a wide open space with a group of trees and undergrowth in it, I WOULD expect enemy troops to be among those trees. So, should one side have no ammunition shortages, you certainly might opt to fire at such a location: it's better to be safe than sorry. This aspect of "balkas" does not worry me at all actually.

Latro said:

Well, just as long as your artillery is also firing at the balka hexes that are next to the one that is actually occupied, as well as all the other places they might be, eh!

Kind of agree with longagoigo there. Seems a bit gamey, cuz you are using the fact that you know that there are units there. On the other hand, if you have a good reason to believe there should be units in the hex, then its something different. For example, if you see mortar fire from the hex (but dont see the units which are fireing them), or if you saw some units enetering the balka, or if you saw one of your squads get killed. Then, I say: fire away. No problem.So, it all depends I guess.

Grand Stone said:

Do you also consider it gamey to move your units towards a flank where enemy units are deployed out of sight? There are boardgames that have a good dose of real fog-of-war, but ToI isn't one of them. The whole game is based around reacting to enemy units that will be out of sight most of the time ... yet somehow your units will always have a 100% correct hunch something is going on at that exact spot.

Just currius, how do they handle fog of war?

But, yes, you dont have fog of war in the game so in general you do know where everything is. But if I dont remember incorrectly, concealed units are actually immune to area effects. So in some sence, the rules allread have a build in mechanism for a similar thing. Attacking units you cannot see in general gives a very large probability to drift. So they are fine. Attacking units which are concealed is also problematic. So why should attacking units in a balka be any different?

But ofcourse, as I said, if the enemy starts firing a mortar from the balka, well, then I would not concidered their location unkown anymore.

Presumably someone Knows the unit is there, it is marked on the Commanders mapboard. ;-) most likely a sniper, scout, spy or listeningpost have located units. The unit in a Balka might have stuck a head/antenna oout, or just made a loud sound. "I can hear a political officer making inflamatory speaches from That trench, hit it!"

Might have been a lot simpler to treat Balkas as terrain one level Lower.

Its also not difficult to add hidden counters for units in alkas if the scenario designer wants...

Grand Stone said:

The "Conflict of Heroes" series has a nice limited Fog of War version. Basicly every unit has the option of hiding by using its action points during your turn. Hiding means the counter is removed from the board and the unit becomes hidden in its (or an adjacent) hex. Following turns it can also move around while remaining hidden and the player keeps track of its location by pen and paper (numbered hexes.

This would obviously become unplayable for large armies, but on a small tactical scale and with the limited movement while hidden it plays very well ... and unexpected counter-attacks or ambush are real threats! The enemy also has the option of firing at "empty" hexes to see if anything is there (if they roll high enough of course) ... adding to the paranoia.

Another method is used by a series of games whose name kinda slipped my mind (Kingtiger should know). It uses small wooden blocks, standing on their sides with the symbol facing the player who owns them. The remaining strength is adjusted by turning them clockwise with the "upside" showing actual strength. Very good method for large strategic battles like the entire Eastern Front. You know where concentrations of enemy forces are, but you don't know what type of divisions and at what strength until they attack are become revealed ... after the attack they are turned back again. So you rely on your memory to roughly keep track of important elite formations. Works very well.

Grand Stone said:

I totally agree. The game already has a way to "really hide" units ... should work just fine!

The games latro is referring to are "Eastfront" and "Europe Engulfed". Works just great. It would be kind of hard to do that with miniatures, though...