Hi Bill, Anyone Else

Can you tell me why the SU-122 has such an obscene range versus infantry? At that range, noone should be able to properly spot infantry in the open or in cover.

Is that range (10) an error or typo?

KlausFritsch said:

Probably because one of it's roles was that of mechanized artillery ... hence it's very strong ranged killingpower v. infantry. It may seem a bit strange that it can spot so well at first glance (... ...), but that's because ToI as a game works with unlimited line-of-sight. Just take a look at other units/cards that use spotting ... range is never a problem (AFAIK) in this game.

And of course you don't often have un unobstructed LOS of 10 hexes...

Mortar also has a range of 8.

Question: would it be appropriate to give the SU-122 indirect fire capabilities similar to the mortar?

Grand Stone said:

Very appropriate, because that was what they were made for (among other things). Due to limited elevation of the gun they weren't capable of providing very close indirect fire though, so you might consider restricting the indirect fire to long-range only (or use them as off-map artillery support).

nope the range is accurate for the early SU-122's as they where armed with howiter's not at-guns,a switch that started in 1944, so the extended range is justifed and yeah indirect fire should be possible with a minium range of 3 i think, btw not official just my opinion, as Latro is right the gun had a resticted elevation.

BJaffe01

BJaffe01 said:

I think you are a little off topic with your answer. It is the accuracy of the SU that KlausFritsch is concerned with, not the firepower.

Actually, its not accuracy, its the visability.

If you are fireing at a stationary target inside an entrenchment, which you know where is, its a completly different matter than if you are firing at an infanteri at long range moving in the woods. It also matter wether you have your own infanteri close by the target or not (aka indirect fire rule). There might be some strange situations where a SU-122 comes around the corner and attacks an infanteri 10 hexes away with a fire & movement rule, but how often does this happen, is it important and how complicted the rules has to be to improve it.

But then, does a "No fire & movement" rule make sence for the SU-122?

Grand Stone said:

Yes, because it's a non-turreted vehcile. This is also how we play the stug and jagdpanzer and this way of playing them is also supported by Bill Jaffe.

BJaffe01 said:

Remember that many SU122s are also used in 1943 scenarios and then they have the very same stats if I'm not mistaken...

Grand Stone said:

But why would you want to change an overall game-mechanic just for the SU-122?

The game has been designed with 100% accurate spotting and unlimited range within the limited scope of the scenario's. Certainly not realistic and historically correct, but from a gaming point of view it works. The "harder to spot/hit" factor is found in a cover save some terrain offer ... simple, but again it works in this game.

I see no reason to play the SU-122 by other rules than the rest of the units ... or redesign the entire game for that matter.

Kingtiger said:

The SU-122 started as a mechanized howitzer and was later redesigned as a mechanized ATG ... so in '43 you would have the howitzer version only and in '44 both versions.

Latro: I completly agree with you. I was just stating what you needed to do if you did want to change the rules.

But I have just one question. Why did they change it from howitzer to ATG? It seems to me that the howitzer version worked well in its intended role.

Grand Stone said:

My guess would be that the bigger and badder Assault Guns (152!) were better at their main role than the medium SU-122 ... so it got replaced and production lines changed to building tank destroyers.

Actually the Soviets where trying to make an at version of the 122 the just couldn'y have it ready for Kursk so unlike the Germans they did not hurry any unproven weapon into production. the first at su-122's would be available in jan.44. su-152 and isu-152 served different roles for the Soviets they used them as breakthrough tanks.

BJaffe01