Hello everyone!

I registered here just to make this topic

When Omens of Ruin was released I was really happy seeing Korhil and Tiranoc Chariot, since it was a sign, that there will be new mechanic for High Elves. Indirect damge was fine but wasnt able to stand against other factions (except Chaos, but looking for a new cards in upcomming BPs, chaos will get awsome and probably overpowered mage). But few days ago we were shown new HE cards for second battle pack. Now I want to ask a question to everyone (and maybe to someone from FFG, if any is reading this):

-What was the point of adding Korhil and Tiranoc Chariot, when now we're going to have "dragon deck"? Wasnt it really waste of place in battlepacks? I have tested them a lot and without new cards it wont just work. The adventage of getting them into deck without something more than scroll of asur is hardly noticed.

And about new dragon deck idea.

I am really, seriously I AM REALLY curious how this deck can work. I am not sure if FFG is aware how HE are slow comparing to other factions. Trick with dreamer of dragon, or temple of vaul is not enough. And new support which search dragons. I am sure everyone here can name plenty of ways to get rid of it. IF this is going to be main mechanic of new deck, then HE will be unplayable as they're now as a solo faction. That's why there should be something more. I am aware it's way to late to add cards in new BPs, I hope you guys will work harder on HE, since for me they got probably best arts (like Moon Dragon) but they're simple unplayable in turnaments.

But I dont want to cry about HE are bad, I hope that together as a community we can give some ideas to FFG to make this faction better. Everyone is welcome to add his ideas!

Here's mine:

Name: xxxxx

Faction: High Elves

Type: Support

Cost: 2 + (1)

Action: Whenever you play a HE unit from your hand, lok at the top five cards of your deck. Then, return them to the top of your deck in any order.

This card is kinda cheap and makes Korhil and Chariot mechanic more usefull. Moreover it deals with problem of potential HE aggro deck, which is weak quest zone.

thanks for reading!

Mirror's my thoughts:

www.boardgamegeek.com/article/6442154#6442154

I guess there are more people who think the same. But are we actualy heard by FFG?

This is just the beginning of the cycle. When they first introduced healing to high elf cards, noone used it due to a lack of synergies. The same will happen to dragon- or cheap unit-builds when all 6 add ons are finally released.

The point is that "healing" still isnt working. And please note that we already know 2 from 6 battle packs. Turnaments are on but elves cant compete on equal terms before all 6 battle packs are available. Doesnt make sense to me.

But its the same for the "development"-decks. They will only show their full possibilities, when the whole cycle has been released. Where do you know the cards from the second BP from?

Not trying to derail your petition here but a lot of folks get wrapped in whatever gimmic of the week which we haven't had time to digest yet and scream that the sky is falling. Not saying you are but other than two unfinished strategies and worries over high cost units or other unfinished play styles of other factions where is the worry the here? What have we been trying to get past it? Are there things we have been ignoring because "why should I have to" or "I never thought of that"? And lastly why should FFG get involved to make that change... or better what is so game breaking about this whatever it is in said faction(s) that makes High Elves not worth playing high elves. And if the answer is something to the effect of "that in competitive play we need more/or they need less so that I can win" or "I can't win easily with a pure high elf deck while the other factions can" then those are not good arguements for FFG to pay us any attention. It should more along the lines of specific opposing strategies and showing where there is a complete lack of control over those. Don't just say "reclaiming the fallen is busted" say "I don't see a way to control when my opponent can use this tactic". The elaborate what you have tried and what's in your deck and an order of operations that you and your oppoent use during the game.

Otherwise this thread is just a whine line and while it lets off steam it isn't productive in the long run for us the players and doubly so for FFG to continue to support our game.

Thanks for that comment. I have to agree that instead of whining we need to show what's wrong with elves, why it just doesnt work. Question is: does any one will hear us?

In my opinion problem with HE is simple: lack of control of what enemy can do and lack of speed to stop carying about enemy at all. Apart of few units with good abilities most of them arent so useuff apart from "theme" decks like indirect damage.

Well most companies do read their own forums and changes have been made to the game to date that reflect player wishes. Surprising the most thoughtful wishes came true. That's a sign of a company that cares about it's product.

Now you do need be a bit more specific than " lack of control of what enemy can do and lack of speed to stop carying about enemy at all. Apart of few units with good abilities most of them arent so useuff apart from "theme" decks like indirect damage".

What strategies from what decks are giving you personally trouble. You've said the why you feel that way but you haven't put the who or what into the discussion.

For instance I used to go to fits over Reclaiming the Fallen in a dwarf deck with grudge throwers, dwarf rangers, grudge bearers, slayers of karack-er-sacrifice-myself, grudge throwers, and mining tunnels. Fits I tell you because that deck rellies on units to do a lot of damage with them either in play or in their discard pile. And my old arguement was that there is no reasonable reliable way to controll any of the following; the resources needed to use reclaiming the fallen, the units in the discard pile, or the speed at which the strategy completes itself.

That said I eventually found that High Elves have it easiest in this contest if they compromise and use out of faction cards (neutral or otherwise). Using support control cards to keep kingdom resources low and destroy the grudge throwers early was key to controlling what units were in the discard pile bceause the opponent could only play so many units each turn and/or pay for the grudge thrower's ability. Using tactics control cards kept my opponent from using reclaiming the fallen unless I had no resources left in play lest I stop it cold. And using unit control cards kept key units like grudge bearers and dwarf rangers out of their need zones and out of play in the correct order. Damage control was covered due to Order Side damage control cards which most players use to buy time anyway. So this strategy was countered not easily but is reliable and do able yes. Just not with straight high elves and not by just playing the cards in a step by step play book that the dwarves use. The matter is also do able from a disorder point of view but we're talking about high elves here and I only bring up the Disorder Side because if you can prove that neither side can deal with a given strategy reliably then you do have a valid point.

So where are we at? There's an example give us a single headache and we all will see if the take two and call me in the morning is available, reliable, and affordable because my above solution while doable is a two core set plus several expansions solution. Keep in mind so is the reclaiming the fallen deck.

Kako K. said:

The Problem is that there are actually 2 factions that have advantages from a development theme and have an easy way to get them out to play. It's more that the other ones have to catch up in the next packs.

@Harliquine

I don't know what "fits" mean (not native speaker) but there are reliable ways to control reclaiming the fallen. First one is resources. For a successful reclaim you need at least one Dwarf Ranger that also gets you the needed 2nd loyalty (way too few) for playing it for 5. Come on 5 Resources is not much for such an effect. Dwarfes usually have one cannon crew + 1 support into kingdom or you can even play a 2 development innovation if you already sac'ed your cannon crew before. Getting units into discard pile is very easy for dwarfes and they have a lot of synergy by doing that. The last point is getting the card and thats the only issue thats not so reliable because it can be discarded from hand or deck before but Order in Chaos can prevent that. It's not so that dwarfes need reclaim to win because they are strong anyway.

But I don't want to whine about dwarfes now because the topic was on the inconsequent HE theme and I think that too. Dwarfes have that cool synergy in sacrificing theirselves and getting a lot of benefits from that.

Empire has an awesome board control (units, support and developments) that now reached its new climax in Visit the Haunted City. They can move their opponents cards, let them draw 1 card a turn and even have very hard hitter without doing any combo ****.

Dark Elves have their focus on unit and card control. I think it's ok from a thematic view but wish they would have more corruption or anti corruption effects.

Orcs have their strong rush potential which still can get some empire or dwarf decks if they don't draw the right answers early. They also have a cool self dmg theme and the last addtitions with a 2nd troll and a high HP unit fit nicely into the pool of cards they already have.

Chaos ... lot of different effects varying from card discarding, corruption, heavy hitters, diseases and unit control but none of them really works well as a whole package. It's somehow understandable because of Chaos nature (4 Gods) but it would be cool to have at least one theme that would be well worked out.

High Elves have indirect damage that was ok after releasing March of the Damned and Silent Forge but it's slow and getting weaker if the opponent develops, or better said now that the moorsleib circle begins. They have a healing theme that only works when they damage theirself which is also slow and frail to unit destruction. Dreamer of Dragons combo is strong but I wouldn't say that this is a theme as it's working in every HE deck. HE have absolutly no effects about developments besides Ellyrian Reavers that are a pricy Dwarf Slaves/Nimble Spearmen. I don't see how they can compete in this circle after knowing that they get 2 more or less useless cards in the next pack. Ok let's summarize they don't have any control about units, support or developments. They don't have good units (Keeper of the Flame is the only good unit I can think of), support (Citadel of Dusk is the only really good one) and Quests. They have some good tactics and one exceptional tactic (Disdain of course). Forgot that they began with some "called back" effects and damage prevention but nothing like this came after this.

So why not focus on indirect damage, healing and damage canceling? Thats still 3 themes and it would take a lot of battlepacks to develop them but still new useless cards are coming that don't support either of them. They have the weakest "no development this zone" building and are way behind every other faction when it comes to development stuff and since it's the focus of this circle it's kind of understandable why the threadstarter is worried.

BTW it's good to see some life in the forum

grille said:

Sword Masters?

grille said:

Here too is part of the rub about the HElves. Banishment looked okay, but then you realised its weaker (target can't have an attachment) and most cases more expensive than Pilgrimage which is a Neutral card from Core Set. And then Empire started getting its bounce back cards and completely stomped the HElf bouncers in the dust (except Flames of the Phoenix, about the only other good card besides Distain HElves have).

I dont understand how anyone can think that High Elves are worse than Chaos.

They have far better supports (especially since they can play Mining Tunnels), access to nimble spearman and demolition, a better mass removal card than any that chaos has with 'flames of the phoenix', a better high cost big hitter than anything chaos can muster in decendent, and tactic cancelation.

Mining Tunnels - not high elf card

demolition - not high elf card

If not HE than don't treat it as one.

nimble spearmen - what's good about this card? thx to those 'enter zone - put development' cards u can put decendent or sword masters into a development the time you most need them. and again, not HE.

flames of the phoenix hit u as much as they hit your opponent, even more as u must play it during your turn and are left with few resources to prepare for an orc/dwarf hard hitting units.

@ Dam:

Forgot that one. It wasn't really played here for a long time so they didn't pop in my mind.

@ Vitamin T:

Yes we were talking plainly of High Elves. Of course you can play Mining Tunnels and Demolition in every deck because of low loyalty and low cost. The units you have "flamed" are just attacking you back in the next turn so it doesn't help that much and Chaos now has Plague Bomb which is just awesome.

@ Aryan:

Don't underestimate Nimble Spearmen. There are not so many possibilties to get more than 1 development into play once a turn and letting your zones undeveloped can really hurt at the moment. Just look at Boar Pen, Den of Inquity, Hidden Grove and the new cards from the first 2 BPs this circle. There can be game deciding effects going so that one development can really make the difference.

Indeed, Nimble Spearman can be really serious proposition in every Order deck. Anyway despite two dragon cards at least we got something to back up Korhil and Chariot, and it's I think even better than my propossed support, since you can check it any turn. Well done, now lets wait for a good cheap units for 2 or 1 price.

While making your arguements about High Elves when you discuss the allied Order Factions don't forget that the game is not intended to be played pure faction from a design point of view. FFG has said that time and time again that they had no intention of making it so that every faction could be played as a pure faction competitively. So do be expected to pull cards from the other factions. There are some excellent cards out that make almost no sense in their home faction but when mixed become a bit more useful.

Harliquine said:

Why then even bother making 6 factions? If they intended to make them not be used separately (although I don't recall seeing any such quote or comment TBH), they should've just made Order and Destruction factions.

I'm still new here but competitively speaking why would you limit yourself to in faction if there is a perfectly good, reasonably costed resource in another faction that circumvents the flaws your faction tends to have? If playing just for fun and you want to stick with a single faction then yes you'll have to deal with the issues, but if you're talking about being competitive while limiting your own resource pool that's your fault.

Whether they said it or not, no where in the rules does it limit you to one faction, you just can't cross the Alliance/Destruction line. So pointing out realistically costed cards from outside faction is perfectly viable.

The topic is about the inconsequent themes in between High Elves and not how competive they are. At least the new HE quest supports the last battlkepack units. Let's hope that this wasn't the last synergy between them.

@Dam

grille & N0rdicNinja are right in this and my comment is relates in that there are 3 factions to a side not including neutral order/disorder side only cards. Why ever limit yourself in a competitive environment when the option presents itself. And from a design point of view it's impossible to control that if you wish to allow the cards of factions of one side to be used with each other in the same deck. Thematically yes you can make a perfectly good pure high elf deck but odds are that it will never perform as well as a deck the opens up to options from it's allied factions.

In relation to the topic at hand my comment is just a note to not be high elf pure in scope when presenting an arguement for a change in your chosen faction. So basically if you say "I want high elves to be better but I don't want to use cards from other factions" that's a bit a pill to swallow in how to make high elves better without making the situation worse. If you take the time to spell out scenarios and provide play based examples then it's easier to swallow.

You all know HE mono suck yet you need examples, explanations and scenarios. Would it make it any better? Every person which played this game a couple of times can easily say how much dwarves are better than high elves in detail, yet i believe it would take more than 10 A4 pages to list all the issues starting from uselesness of healing atm, poor indirect dmg deck against toughness, going through comparing the same cost units and tactics and ending at synergies.

Why is it so unexpected that there are people willing to play mono-faction decks? Really so surprising that someone wants to get the feel of specific races instead of just comparing how cards will fill the mechanics? Sadly game can be played with mechanics without climax, lore of WH world, games, books, but not the other way round.

If i wished perfect mechanics i would have chosen chess. but no. i want to feel this game, not being interrupted by losing 5 times in a row because my opponent played reclaim the fallen. Not getting pissed when i face longbeards with dozens of great cheap 1 gold attachements. That's not really that hard. When FFG continously gives great cards to dwarves and empire and no-worth-mentioning cards to HE and chaos how can things be right? I finished moaning.

OP is right: healing, indirect damage, deck/draw control and none are competitive. It's such a shame because there are a couple really good cards and many more really cool cards. I hope to make a competitive indirect damage + Lizardmen (read: Spawn of Itzl) deck, I'll see how it turns out.

I am really surprised how many ppl here still need proof of HE weakness? Check any turnament score? Didnt see any HE deck or somewhere close to the last place? That's correct it's ID pure HE deck. It doesnt work for now, and wont work for now, but I have to tell you I am kinda happy to see new True Mage, it can boost ID very much. Still HE needs few more cards which which can affect enemy supports or units, that's what HE need, a bit of control.

I built a Korhil/Chariot deck and it worked ok. It was better than I thought it would be. Korhil was not that bad at all, the chariot was a little underwhelming but was alright. This was the night before the restricted list though, so it had innovation/warpstone/mining tunnels.

TL

@ Vitamin T-

Did you use the Scroll of Asur or some other method for ensuring your cards were on top when Korhil attacked?