Malaclypsedk said:

But doesn't the description of the Kraken round include "...improved explosive charge..."? I'm personally all for making the standard in-game trade off (and rough physics equivalent) of damage for pen, just not sure how well it works in this system...anyone remember what the statistical damage bump you get from tearing is?

And were you talking about the Assault Cannon clip? I don't think you get a backpack with it at all- I've not seen the backpack on the terminator models. And FWIW, if you can go through those 200 rounds with a RoF 10 and you've not had a chance to stop and reload, that is one hell of a combat grind. If you want to imagine it having an actual RoF of 100 knock yourself out, in that case you're carrying 2000 rounds rather than 200, but for game mechanics it's at 10. Some have tried toying with giving it the storm quality (which would essentially give it 10-20), or funkier but reasonable rules like giving bonus pen per shot for DoS, giving it devestating to help it with hordes without going straight up 2x hits. I'll point to Alex's thread again, but there was another separate AC specific one somehwere out there.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=213&efcid=3&efidt=402341&efpag=0

@Siranui: reducing the HB to the standard bolter stats isn't a terrible solution at lower ranks, but others have complained that mucking with the stats too far makes the Storm Bolter king of the armory with the increased average number of hits that come from a SB. I've not hit this problem yet (though I'm sitting with a HB RoF at 8, slightly reduced damage, and I don't allow players to dual wield basic weapons)

Yeah I saw that last night before going to bed. The Kraken round does indeed have an improved explosive, thus qualifying for the tearing quality. My bad.

My thoughts on the AC was purely cinematic and not game mechanics. That it has an extreme rate of fire is a known fact, so it was more to visualize that wall of lead spewing forth from the rotating barrels.

One of the things I that gets me annoyed is the fact that a full auro burst is always the max of the RoF. IMO it would make sense that a SM could control his bursts, so that if he wanted to fire 4 rounds, then he does so. That way when he can fire his HB as a half action, then he can fire 2 shortened bursts up to max of his RoF in his turn. He would also be conserving ammo for that more important target later in the mission...

Charmander said:

It would indeed make the Storm Bolter a great weapon. That's the problem with pulling a loose thread: You can cause the entire garment to fall apart.

I haven't actually had a problem with autofire or heavy bolters yet, so I've got no plans to change them. I believe that the disadvantages of lugging around a heavy weapon are more than enough to balance out the advantages. I've not have a player even *try* to use two basic weapons, because my players would think it was idiotic. Thankfully.

Siranui said:

One of my players asked- he knew what the answer was before he asked the question, and he knew he'd have ruled the same way, but he couldn't seem to help it

Charmander said:

Yeah, this is basically the issue I'm trying to deal with.

I still think adding *some* kind of diminishing returns to autofire is the way to go, along with buffing Plasma and Melta in their specific "niches".

Charmander said:

depends on the number of dice you roll but in the case of 2d10 its about 3-4 points of damage if you include RF.

two things I want to say. first of all since 3rd edition plasma guns have been "rapid fire" and even in second edition the old ones used by chaos (which arguably have a lot in common with the RoB archeotech plasma gun) was sustained fire that rolled the same number of dice as a storm bolter. so to me a rapid fire plasma gun is not that unprecedented

and second I think the problem is the massive disparity there should be between the power of the weapons. if a bolter needed to be beefed until it could harm a space marine reliably then a plasma weapon should pretty much incinerate one. in TT a meltagun... as in the basic weapon, is str 8 ap1. this means it should have more in common with a lascannon than a bolter in terms of damage potential. admitedly TT has a lot of disparities with fluff and deathwatch is closer to fluff. but I hope im not the only one who thinks that a rank one marine of the line should more than likely be put out of action by a single shot from a meltagun

In my opinion the main problem is that FFG went away from the grimdark sudden death feel of Dark Heresy (my first adventure in dark heresy the whole party apart from me was killed in one burst from a twin linked autocannon and I only survived because I wasnt in the room but hey thats what burning fate is for). A plasma gun in the hands of an enemy should be able to insta fry a marine, but the game is meant for epic heroism so they had to limit the power of the weapons in case the GM made them fight chaos space marines. Personally when I GM deathwatch now I have ignored all the DH and RT weapons that came before, and massively upped the game on plasma and melta weapons. this has cost me an inconsistency between the game systems, but brought back the feel of grimdark epic death, and of course I'm happy that now the marines are armed with amazingly powerful weapons. I personally hated the idea that once you had enough requisition to buy a plasma gun or meltagun it wasn't a stupidly obvious choice, because it should be. they are supposed to be amazing hero weapons that if the imperium had enough of them they would equip everyone with

Narkasis Broon said:

Ah, you see this I disagree with: I very much *don't* want the game to get to a state where Plasma and Melta weapons are Unstoppable God Weapons. The way I see it Plasma weapons are more powerful than bolters, but unreliable and overkill versus light infantry. Melta weapons are basically designed to cut bulkheads and should be most effective versus vehicles - again I don't think they should be something you want to use in a regular fight.

I'd also point out that if you're going by Tabletop canon, then the relative chances of a single shot from a given weapon killing a Space Marine are:

Melta Gun: 5/6

Bolt Gun: 1/6

Lasgun: 1/9

Once you remember that "kill" in this context really means "damage sufficiently to prevent further involvement in battle" I'd suggest that things are pretty much exactly where they're supposed to be right now (a short range melta-gun hit will do 3D10 + 8 damage ignoring pretty much all armour, which should easily knock a Marine into critical damage) ironically it's basically the Lasgun that needs buffing.

Chastity said:

This. Alternative weapons to the bolter should be a choice based on tactical considerations, not a no-brainer. There's certainly more than a million plasma guns in the Imperium of Man, so if they're just *better* than bolters, make them standard marine issue instead of bolters. But they're not standard issue because they're not always strictly 'better'.

Siranui said:

That would seem to be the FFG take on things, but if that's the case why do melta's and plasma's cost so much compared to a bolter. If they are a choice why not let people choose for no renown or requisition cost.

As it is they cost a lot for no real gain.

Face Eater said:

Both basic weapons of those type only need the first level of renown, it pretty easy to hit that first level normally after the first 2 - 4 missions if you make sure to hit the secondary and most of the tertiary objectives. More if their leader decides to take oath of glory to try and boost those points.

Both the weapons have a place though if your going to run into more heavy armored enemies the plas is the way to go. Yes, you can get specal ammo but you can only get one clip per point cost where with the plas you get atleast 3 or unlimited if the GM plays that way.

If you find yourself in a mine or any tight spaced area were range isn't a factor then the melta is nicer since you will probably find yourself in short range more often doing 3d10+8 with a 13 pen is going to be better then 2d10+5 pen 5. While it does suck that the infernus pistol needs famed renown it is a very rare weapon (unless your a seneschal in RT) it is still better then the bolt pistol in melee since you can't fire semi.

Fabian said:

No. Against heavy infantry the Heavy Bolter is the way to go.

Alex

Fabian said:

Fabian said:

Even if you have enough renown it's still req that could be spent on other things. That 3 pen isn't worth anything compared to the difference in rate of fire and the 3 dice you towards those all important RF's.

The Melta gun is slightly better but that range is terrible, yes '3d10+8 with a 13 pen is going to be better then 2d10+5 pen 5' but is it better than 1-4 X 2d10+5 pen 5, if most of your shots are 2d10+8 then the answer is no or you spend turns getting into short range and not firing then I think the answer is no. And to get in short range for the extra D10 is chore in the world of heavy bolters and jump pack charge ranges etc. They still arent the anti vehicle weapons they are in the TT.

Chastity mentioned the 5/6 chances to kill an SM on the TT but that's the same chance as taking a wound off a Hive Tyrant, a Carnifex etc, if anything it's overkill on a Marine.

Plus, and I realise I'm about to start a circular arguement here, those bolters are way better at cutting through hordes. 1 shot with melta is 1 horde damage a bolter could be 5. Of course the circular part comes because someones thinking, 'What's the point? The Dev with the heavy bolter is for taking out hordes.'

I don't know weather bolters are too good, the enemies are too weak (the good ones anyway), is autofire too good in this system, or the other weapons are too weak but there's something wrong with the balance in my eyes.

ak-73 said:

True but I was talking about the basic weapon bolter vs plas rifle, and only if the game is using ammo since the specal round the bolters get out damage or equal max setting plas without the recharge.

Face Eater you are right on the cost I think it more the Deathwatch training giving auto RF for xeno more then anything since Volatile is pretty much minimized to just chaos. I did see some nice house rules where Volatile RF's on a 9, 10 maybe add in a check tech-use after firing max setting to avoid recharge but adds a 5% to overheat per turn of max firing. I agree it might be the Auto/semi fire rules. I was thinking about maybe using the old 'Shadowrun' autofire rules but then it took forever to since you rolled every **** bullet starting with +0 to hit quicking going to negitive with each other round leaving the weapon from recoil.

The point I wanted to make for the Melta was in places were range(inclosed mine, hulks, ect) was not an issue it is better then the bolter. Again for the basic models, since the blast might hurt the KT just as much as the enemy. There AA does need some boosting but still 13 pen does go along way when you look at how much a normal bolter can do, still your not going to make a Hammerhead blink like they would in TT though unless your 10meters away and shooting up its butt.

Now the heavy version of both the Plas and Melta do need some help the Heavy bolter just out classes them. Hell you can throw in the Assault Cannon as being out classed as well.

Face Eater said:

I think you might have missed my point. My point here was that a TT Melta Gun obviously *isn't* an insta-kill against weak targets, because it does in fact have a chance of leaving a Marine totally unharmed.

I agree that Melta guns are very niche at the moment (I'm okay with that), I also agree that their niche isn't particularly well protected, because Bolters and (especially) Heavy Bolters are just a bit too good (I'm less okay with that). I *do* think that the problem comes primarily from the Autofire rules allowing Bolter damage to scale linearly with Ballistic Skill. *One* Meltagun hit is better than *one* Heavy Bolter hit against a heavily armoured target, but it's not better than ten.

I'm okay with Bolters being the Mario of the armoury - second best at everything is a good position to be in, and it secures their place as the "mainstay" weapon of the Imperium - the problem is that they're just flat out better in most cases, and I think autofire scaling is a big part of the reason for that.

Chastity said:

The problem is that the damage of all Bolt Weapons is too high. If you take it down by about 2 points, you are reducing final damage by 2x#of hits.

Alex

Thing is, I don't think that actually gets at the underlying problem. All that does is increase the number of hits you have to get before the rapid-fire weapons *once again* outscale the single-target weapons.

Except against vehicles of course, where RF means zero unless you've breached the armour, and where melta still seems the way forward.

Siranui said:

I've not actually got the vehicle rules - I'm working on a homebrew system because I tend not to buy supplements.

Chastity said:

Against "hordes" or monstrous creatures the heavy bolter is potentially better in 40K than plasma or melta though due to its high ROF.

Besides that I have suggested limiting the ROF of the HB to 6 in my house rules on this forum. That caps the whole thing for the HB.

Alex

Chastity said:

You really should look into it. It's a brilliant book, jam-packed with excellent stuff. It was the first splat-book I've looked forward to in years, and it didn't disappoint.

There are also stats for both better plasma and melta weapons in that would probably solve the issue.

Siranui said:

I would actually look it as extension of the rulebook. The 40K Roleplay rulebooks are only complete with inclusion of the IHB, ITS and ROB respectively. Homebrewing is much easier when it's done on top of them.

Alex

Siranui said:

I might take a look, I'm just not sure I want to spend another forty quid on a hardcover rulebook right now.

In case anybody's interested, my house-rules for vehicles are at here - comment appreciated.