Hey all i haven't play tested this idea much yet put i think pillboxes and bunkers should be immune to concussive firpower. instead you should be able to reduce them through tank vs vehicle firepower. ie: after the Sherman attacks a pillbox and the pillbox defends if there are any success remaining subtract them from the pillboxes defense immeaditely and mark the new number with a token. so lets say after a fire combat resultion you have 2 success remaining the pillbox now rolls 4 dice for defense of the occupants.

let me know what you think. this isn't official of course but it should add some realism to these structures

BJaffe01

So, are you saying that the two successes are applied to the pillbox and to the occupants,just to the pillbox until its cover reaches zero?

How would suppressive tank fire be handled?

There should be an "or" in that first sentence:

So, are you saying that the two successes are applied to the pillbox and to the occupants,just to the pillbox, until its cover reaches zero?

OK, I don't know what happened this time. Apparently this message board doesn't like the word "or". I'll try again:

Are you saying that the two successes are applied to the pillbox and to the occupants until its cover reaches zero? Or are they applied just to the pillbox?

I think what he is saying is that the tanks destroies the pillbox (or bunker) instead of the occupant. Or atleast, use that as an option. I geuss in particular the SU-122 may opt to kill the occupants instead. But in general I think it seems interesting. It will give tanks some options to deal with a pillbox, German tanks will be better at taking out the pillboxes due to its increased firepower. Shermans will take a long time to reduce the pillbox significantly in strength.

I would still have some minor issues with concusive firepower (mainly the increased range) but this change would definitively strengthen the defensive powers of a pillbox. If you combine this rule with a maxium range for combined fire (all partisipants must be within 2 hexes from target for example), then the pillboxesbunkers would realy start to shine as defensive structures.

I realy enjoy the demolition expert, but I find there is one element missing. Could the same mechanism be applied to demolitions?

Ie, can a demolition expert assult a hex with a pillbox: rules as follows:

-Defendere rolls firepower as normal

-Dont add any firepower for the demolition expert.

-Attacker removes cassulties.

-If atleast 1 squad remains in the demoliton expert base, it may leave a demolition charge on the pillbox before it retreats.

When the charge is set off, it reduces the pillbox defence with X dices.

yeah i was thinking to the pillbox firstly the unit inside would then defend as if the pillbox provided 4 cover from the tanks first attack roll since the pillboxes protection has been reduced.

actually those are a good start on rules for the demo expert Grand Stone.

BJaffe01

Many pillboxes, bunkers where built so well you could shoot at them all day with a sherman tank and never penetrate the concrete. There where some bunker buster guns but none of these are in TOI. The only other way was to assault the bunker and that's what they did most of the time. Scenario designers need to give the opposing force flamethrowers if they are using bunkers in a game.

BJaffe07: youre still not very clear... I think it would be better that the shermans could either attack the pillbox or the men inside. Not both at the same time.

Cyscott1:

A sherman would not be able to do significantly damage to a pillbox, and it would take a long time to destroy. A single sherman rolls 8 dices,the pillbox rolls 6 dices in defence, so the damage to the pillbox would not be significant, atleast not at first. Doing anything more than 1 in damage would be unnormal. At point-blank range the damage would be improved. The german tanks would be far better at this though...

BJaffe01 said:

In the timeframe given in a ToI scenario, tanks cannot destroy bunkerspillboxes. For larger fortifications, called bunkers in ToI, only a direct hit into the embrasure would have any effect, thus the large number of defence dice.

To demolish fortifications, you need specialized vehicles. Possible bunker busters are Brummbärs (150mm gun), Churchill AVREs (firing a special demolitions charge with very limited range)other very-large-caliber guns. I do not know about the SU 122, I would have to look that up.

Again, the authors of Flames of War have done good research work. I would transfer the Bunker Buster trait from their lists to the corresponding guns in ToIthen use a general rule applying to gunsvehicles with the Bunker Buster trait to reducedestroy fortifications. Such guns should also be able to breach tank trapsbarbed wire in some way in my opinion.

All squads with the Demolotion specialization should also get the Bunker Buster trait.

An Operations card could also give this ability to Engineer specializations in certain scenarios.

BJaffe01 said:

Per the current official rules BUNKERS aren't affected by concussive firepower anyway. Only pillboxesbuildings. I guess i'm fine with the current rule. Your suggestion, however, would be a great touch to certain scenariosmight help make them more balanced (e.g. "piercing the Siegfried line").

BJaffe01 said:

Why not use the rules for "destructible buildings"assign a defensive cover modifier to the structure. In this case you might add that you cannot opt to attack the squad until the bunker has been destrouedheavily damaged perhaps...

Cyscott1 said:

No, they don't. Just combine fire with 5 rifle squads from hundreds of yards awayyou'll more than get the job done...

Kingtiger said:

In all of my reading I have found that bunkers alone cannot effectively stop an attack. They have to be placed so that they support each other (are in each other's fields of fire) and that they are supported by additional MG positionsreserve infantry that can be rushed to the point of attack. The approaches to the definsive postion should also be open ground, cleared of buildingstreescovered by the fields of fire of the defenders.

So, if the attacker stops his platoon to shoot up one bunkerpillbox, given good placement, the supporting positions should be able to inflict significantly more casualties on the attacking platoon than that platoon can inflict on the defender.

That might not always be possible in ToI, given some of the set-up restrictions in scenarios, though.

i hadn't thought about attacking the squad instead of the bunkerpillbox but it's certainly possible. giving the structures destructible factors is actually not a bad idea. thanks for the feedback so far i'll keep working on what i want to do.

BJaffe01

Just a comment about the defensive abilites of a pillbox. If a pillboxes are placed in a bad positions on the map, it will be a bad fortification. But it is actually up to the scneario designer. If the scenario should represent a well fortified position, we should give the scenario designer the tools to create such a positions. A good scenario designer can (hopefully) place the pillboxes according to the situation he/she wants to describe.

I am with the idea of applying the tanks normal attack firepower to damage to the pillbox, before any casualties are applyed to the squad inside. Once the pillbox cover gets reduced to +2, however, it becomes an entrenchment, and all subsequent attacks are resolved as against other regular entrenchments, and applied to the squad inside.

Additional option: Maybe apply damage markers to the pillbox, as if it were an armored target with +6, then when it gets destroyed, replace the pillbox with an entrenchment token, and then the squad inside can take casualities.

How about the following idear for Pillboxes?

Treat the Pillbox as a Vehicle with an Armorvalue of 6. Speed zeroTransport(1).
If the Pillbox takes damage, roll a number of dice equal to that damage,apply that to the occupants as supressive damage.
In addition, when the pillbox is destroyed roll on the 'Tankriders' card. (ie. 1-fatigue; 2,3 -pin; 4,5-suppress; 6-Kill.

Hefsgaard said:

Now you're getting ToI mixed up with Transformers! (except for the Speed zero part.)

Hefsgaard said:

Great idea, but rather than transport 1, I'd simply say: a pillbox can be occupied by a single squad.

good ideas there folks i think something workable can be written out. thanks for all the feedback

BJaffe01