That's purely a matter of preference. As I said above: Many people don't want to just spend XP on an endless, rationed-out list of things to make you kill stuff better. The sooner that dull 'list' comes to an end and they can buy stuff to add depth the the character, the better.
IF Devestator, how to reach Rank 8?
Siranui said:
That's purely a matter of preference. As I said above: Many people don't want to just spend XP on an endless, rationed-out list of things to make you kill stuff better. The sooner that dull 'list' comes to an end and they can buy stuff to add depth the the character, the better.
I agree. It can be quite liberating to get combat optimisation out of the way, and focus on interesting skills and such.
harlokin said:
Siranui said:
That's purely a matter of preference. As I said above: Many people don't want to just spend XP on an endless, rationed-out list of things to make you kill stuff better. The sooner that dull 'list' comes to an end and they can buy stuff to add depth the the character, the better.
I agree. It can be quite liberating to get combat optimisation out of the way, and focus on interesting skills and such.
I don't concur. I think DW the RPG lends itself more to combat optimization by nature, first of all. Secondly, from a gaming perspective I think it's better to have the opportunity to choose to become even better at one's speciality or to round-out one's character. If at higher ranks there are diminishing returns for super-optimization, that is just fine too. But having the option available is a thrill. And, mind you, I tell you that as CF Dev without Unrelenting Devastation and Mighty Shot (although Mighty Shot will probably come after the current mission).
Alex
Errr.... you don't concur that it's a matter of opinion?
Siranui said:
Errr.... you don't concur that it's a matter of opinion?
"[...]The sooner that dull 'list' comes to an end and they can buy stuff to add depth the the character, the better."
"I agree. It can be quite liberating to get combat optimisation out of the way, and focus on interesting skills and such."
"I don't concur."
Alex
ak-73 said:
"[...]The sooner that dull 'list' comes to an endthey can buy stuff to add depth the the character, the better."
"I agree. It can be quite liberating to get combat optimisation out of the way,focus on interesting skillssuch."
"I don't concur."
Alex
So the only thing worth looking forward too is shooting talents, in your opinion?
ak-73 said:
I don't concur. I think DW the RPG lends itself more to combat optimization by nature, first of all. Secondly, from a gaming perspective I think it's better to have the opportunity to choose to become even better at one's specialityto round-out one's character. If at higher ranks there are diminishing returns for super-optimization, that is just fine too. But having the option available is a thrill. And, mind you, I tell you that as CF Dev without Unrelenting DevastationMighty Shot (although Mighty Shot will probably come after the current mission).
You can choose to become better for diminishing returns, still. Stat-ups, Distinctionsspeciality careers do that for those who want to go that way. I want to be able to spend the majority of my XP on something other than improving my combat skillsparticipating in a desperatemoot arms race with the GM.
An observation: Not having mighty shot for a couple of missions isn't really a sacrifice. It's solid optimisation, based on the fact that the extra damage is small percentage-wiseonly applicable against the toughest of foes who aren't already dead from the rest of the damage. It makes much more mathematical sense to apply initial XP to buying a deed, upping BS at least twice (heck: Probably three times),increasing survivability by dint of Toughnessother means.
ItsUncertainWho said:
So the only thing worth looking forward too is shooting talents, in your opinion?
This is the second time you erroneously placed words into my mouth, I suggest you cease doing so.
@Siranui: Well, from a gaming perspective it would still be nice to have a Rank 8 level talent (or two) to work towards to, which represent the epitome of marksmanship, if you will. As for advances, my CF has picked Stalwart Defence, BS+5, T+5 (hey, Sons of Dorn)11 Tactics advances (young tactical genious). Trying to leave a bit the worn-out paths here, although Mighty Shot is just too elementary to ignore for too long. A Dev without Unrelenting Devastation and Mighty Shot will probably leave the kill-team scratching its head, especially when fighting threatening hordes. I like however how Immovable Warrior (got to take that as son of Dorn), Stalwart DefenceSiegecraft Solo Mode ability interact.
Alex
ak-73 said:
ItsUncertainWho said:
So the only thing worth looking forward too is shooting talents, in your opinion?
This is the second time you erroneously placed words into my mouth, I suggest you cease doing so.
I did not put words in your mouth. Did you miss the question mark at the end of the sentence?
Based on the passages you quoted, your opinion seems to be that shooting talents are the only thing worth looking forward too and you seem to be against the idea that growth beyond shooting talents is a good idea for a Dev. Based on what you quoted about growing a character, that you did not concur with, what conclusion am I supposed to draw?
Just for clarity, I am not trying to be belligerent, just trying to figure out your actual opinion since I am apparently confused.
ItsUncertainWho said:
ak-73 said:
ItsUncertainWho said:
So the only thing worth looking forward too is shooting talents, in your opinion?
This is the second time you erroneously placed words into my mouth, I suggest you cease doing so.
I did not put words in your mouth. Did you miss the question mark at the end of the sentence?
Seriously, that doesn't make a whole lot of a difference (for example, you might as well have asked: "So you are a disingenious person in your own opinion?"hide yourself behind that question-mark), especially not since that has been answered further up in the thread:
"So the only thing worth looking forward too is shooting talents"
"Tsk. All I said was that the IF Dev doesn't get too much in the way of becoming better at his chosen specialty at this point unlike the Assault, which is not ideal from a gaming perspective."
ItsUncertainWho said:
Based on the passages you quoted, your opinion seems to be that shooting talents are the only thing worth looking forward tooyou seem to be against the idea that growth beyond shooting talents is a good idea for a Dev. Based on what you quoted about growing a character, that you did not concur with, what conclusion am I supposed to draw?
I refer you over to Reply #3 in this thread.
Alex
As usual, I'm going to defer to Siranui on this one. Just because you get all the shooty benifits out of the away doesn't mean your done. Yes, this game is more combat oriented but that doesn't mean that you have no need for skills.
I think that an IF, who seeks perfection, would easily pick up every language of Xenos that he can. Each Hatred to perfect his zeal if ever caught in a close engagement. Resistance to heatcold. Being able to pilot any type of vehicleknow any map. These are roleplaying devices but are still quite useful in a game. My group has already downed speaking languages of the enemy, but I'm going to start making it criticalapparent that having it helps alot in knowing what the other side is doing.
Other good options have been listed. Advanced Specialities, Distinctions, signature wargear at that high high stage. But I don't think what has been mentioned,what I love about the system is Elite Advances. If you want your character to have something at that high of a level, talk it over with your DMfloat them a number. If you're worried about just spending what you have at that level, don't be stingy. And if they agree, bam. You have it. You don't have to be confined by your advance table at all times.
Sure but how would you feel if the Assault Marine would not include any melee combat related talents after the first rank? Part of the fun for many gamers is growing one's combat capabilitiesnot just rounding out the characterthat is legitimate.
I don't see merit in being a combat advances ascetic, nor in fearfully avoiding "power-gaming." Becoming a more powerful PC is fun, is part of the fun of RPing, and, sadly enough, for some gamers it's the only fun.
As a GM I encourage my players to find new powerful combinations, it's fully in the spirit of the game. My job as a GM is to make sure that players are rewarded for discovering powerful combinations, while ensuring it does not get over-powered.
And so I stand to my previous words: it's not ideal from a gaming perspective. It would be preferable, if the players had onetwo target talents to work towards.
Alex
ak-73 said:
Sure but how would you feel if the Assault Marine would not include any melee combat related talents after the first rank? Part of the fun for many gamers is growing one's combat capabilities not just rounding out the character that is legitimate.I
It is entirely legitimate for a gamer to want to grow his character's combat capability.
The problem with the Assault - Devastator comparison is that the Assault Marine has to spend many talents to attampt to get close to the combat effectiveness of a Rank 1 Dev with no Talents, but equipped with a Heavy Bolter.
From a game design point of view, I think it would have been better if the Heavy Bolter had been less powerful, but with the evastator given various Talents to improve it.
It isn't like I don't want to buy non shooty things. My Dev shoud start at rank 2, to replace another pc.
From the starting xp he got I bought him 2 Tactics at +20, forbidden lore traitor legions (dunno how high)signature wargear.
So I already plan on buying other stuff. But for me a char is fleshed out on the way to his goal, which is becoming good at his main job. And for a SM thats more than anything combat. And in the case of the dev it's shooting.
I know swift attack is strong for a dev. But it is nothing that completes a shooty pc.
So I guess the main difference in opinion is: Do you want to have the shooty things out of the waydo you want one big, cool talent at the end.
The Assault gets the latter, even two of them, the dev gets the first.
My solution would be to put Storm of iron to rank 8 (for all advancement tables)
harlokin said:
ak-73 said:
Sure but how would you feel if the Assault Marine would not include any melee combat related talents after the first rank? Part of the fun for many gamers is growing one's combat capabilities not just rounding out the character that is legitimate.I
It is entirely legitimate for a gamer to want to grow his character's combat capability.
The problem with the Assault - Devastator comparison is that the Assault Marine has to spend many talents to attampt to get close to the combat effectiveness of a Rank 1 Dev with no Talents, but equipped with a Heavy Bolter.
From a game design point of view, I think it would have been better if the Heavy Bolter had been less powerful, but with the evastator given various Talents to improve it.
www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp
Notice the OP.
Can't say moreelse I'll invite Charmander's mockery for getting caught up in another HB discussion again.
Alex
Umbranus said:
So I guess the main difference in opinion is: Do you want to have the shooty things out of the waydo you want one big, cool talent at the end.
The Assault gets the latter, even two of them, the dev gets the first.
Which is great; because the game has two 'combat classes' catered for both types of player. People who like spending their entire character development arc scrabbling for the next killy thing can play AMs,those of us who like to get the wretched stuff out the way so they can get on with characterisation can do so. I'd be delighted if the AM was 'done' with combat talents by rank 3 to be honest, but where would that leave the people who like running on the 'I got another +10' treadmill? Because that's what it is in many ways. You get a bit tougher, and so do the things you're pitted against. It's chasing a carrot on a stick..
I consider the Champion alternative class ideal for those who want to discard any kind of characterisation for another slew of bonuses, regardless of cost. You can relentlessly chase combat uberness at the expense of all else there, if you're that way inclined. But it will cost pretty much any dimension in skills.
Siranui said:
Umbranus said:
So I guess the main difference in opinion is: Do you want to have the shooty things out of the waydo you want one big, cool talent at the end.
The Assault gets the latter, even two of them, the dev gets the first.
Which is great; because the game has two 'combat classes' catered for both types of player. People who like spending their entire character development arc scrabbling for the next killy thing can play AMs,those of us who like to get the wretched stuff out the way so they can get on with characterisation can do so. I'd be delighted if the AM was 'done' with combat talents by rank 3 to be honest, but where would that leave the people who like running on the 'I got another +10' treadmill? Because that's what it is in many ways. You get a bit tougher,so do the things you're pitted against. It's chasing a carrot on a stick..
I consider the Champion alternative class ideal for those who want to discard any kind of characterisation for another slew of bonuses, regardless of cost. You can relentlessly chase combat uberness at the expense of all else there, if you're that way inclined. But it will cost pretty much any dimension in skills.
You make it sound as if it was an either-or thing. You should be able to improve your combat prowessround-out your PC at the same time given the amounts of XP.
Alex
Errr... it is an either-or thing, design-wise. You can either have a character who has more combat stuff available throughout the careeryou can have it cap early, forcing players to round-out their characters. If you have a character who can continue to buy combat stuff all the way through, it's the formernot the later.
Siranui said:
class ideal for those who want to discard any kind of characterisation for another slew of bonuses, regardless of cost. You can relentlessly chase combat uberness at the expense of all else there, if you're that way inclined. But it will cost pretty much any dimension in skills.
If this really is what you propose after the current discussion, I pitty you for not being able to read or understand what's the point.
This makes me so sad.
So basically If I'm understanding the OP then he just wants a shooting talent to buy at rank 8. I guess rather than buying all your hsooting talents as they becoem available you can space them out over your rankspick up some other skills. By my count there are 10 shooting related talents of which you could buy before ending rank 7. Throw in some signature wargear to help maximize number of hitsprevent jamsyou're set. Evaluate is a really goos skill for destroying enemy positionsbunkers too. I consider it a must have for Devastators.
Siranui said:
Errr... it is an either-or thing, design-wise. You can either have a character who has more combat stuff available throughout the careeryou can have it cap early, forcing players to round-out their characters. If you have a character who can continue to buy combat stuff all the way through, it's the formernot the later.
That's not what I meant. I meant that from a player's pov, it's nice to have the option to further improve your shooting abilitiesto instead round out your PC. And I meant it would be nice if the players had the options at high rank to buy a nice shooting related talent. Something to work towards to.
It's not like a player can only round-out their PCtake some high level combat talent relevant to their specialty. That's not an either-or thing.
@andrewm9: About Evaluate... it seems a bit over-powered in combination with my Crimson's Siegecraft. Also see the above remarks about having an interesting combat talentthe other to work towards to. Thus Umbranus contemplating moving Wall of Steel to Rank 8.
Alex
From a different player's point of view it's nice NOT to have more stuff to buy to get better at shooting. Please understand that we don't all want to spend all of our XP chasing moving targets like you like to.
Siranui said:
Please understand that we don't all want to spend all of our XP chasing moving targets like you like to.
And once again you prove that you can't or don't want to read our posts.
Siranui said:
From a different player's point of view it's nice NOT to have more stuff to buy to get better at shooting. Please understand that we don't all want to spend all of our XP chasing moving targets like you like to.
Now that doesn't follow. I think in a game, as in reality, a player should decide how much he is willing to pour into his specialization. That should create different degrees of specialization with players of the same specialty (or class in other games). If you end up with all players of that specialty maxing out then this is either the intention of the playersthe the stuff with which one can round out one's character isn't very enticing (which again depends on the player's mind-set).
Please understand that that not everyone needs to over-compensate for the power-gaming tendencies of a number of players like some people in this topic, including you, seem to do.
Offering onetwo single Devastator talents as suggested at Rank 8 hardly qualifies as "spending all of our XP chasing moving targets." Instead you are stripping away the choice due to your aforementioned over-reaction.
Alex
ak-73 said:
Now that doesn't follow. I think in a game, as in reality, a player should decide how much he is willing to pour into his specialization. That should create different degrees of specialization with players of the same specialty (or class in other games). If you end up with all players of that specialty maxing out then this is either the intention of the playersthe the stuff with which one can round out one's character isn't very enticing (which again depends on the player's mind-set).
Please understand that that not everyone needs to over-compensate for the power-gaming tendencies of a number of players like some people in this topic, including you, seem to do.
Offering onetwo single Devastator talents as suggested at Rank 8 hardly qualifies as "spending all of our XP chasing moving targets." Instead you are stripping away the choice due to your aforementioned over-reaction.
Alex
So Alex you are saying that you woudl prefer it if Devastators needed 16+ talents to master their combat aspect like Assault Marines. Correct? Nothing wrong with that I suppose. I just wonder why anyone would inflict that on themselves I'd liek to be able to actually buy some fo those other skills while maximizing my potential. I see where you are coming from though even if I don't agree.