I am wondering how a Imperial Fists Devastator can reach Rank 8 without taking too many silly advances.
Ech of the 3 last ranks (6,7,8) only contains 3 Advances, one of with on every rank is tech use (+10/+20) which can be taken as general advances if someone happens to decide to take it.

The second advance on those three ranks is sound constitution. Which (in my opinion) is useless because there are more than enough such advances on the general list.

What remains is

• rapid reaction: Cool but nothing that feels like devastator
• eye of vengance: A chapter advance for IF, so will already be taken earlier
• Swift attack: Nice to have but realy underwhelming for rank 8 where other specialties get tough talents like preternatural speed.

Why not give him useful things like Leap up, Step aside, technical knock or talented (Demolitions)

I know the dev gets some really nice talents in the early ranks, but so do the rest of the specialties.

And I know that there are a lot players who think the dev is to strong. But is it a good way to handle that if he just doesn't get anything that makes him better at his job (shooting big guns) in the late game where everyone else gets the hot stuff?

Even eye of vengance (which IS really good) dosn't work with the standard dev weapon, the HB.

How do you go about it? Just fill up with sound constitution? Take lots of lore? Take everything that helps with your weakness (close combat) like hatred or hunter of aliens?

Buy statistics, of course. +20BS for a start, +20T too, probably. And stuff off the General and Deathwatch advance schemes.

Devs don't get step aside et al because they aren't a melee class, and they don't get much later on to help them shoot stuff because they've already got *all* of the other shooting stuff already.

The Gen Space Marine Advances have some nice beefy talents, like Bolter Drill and Sig Wargear (Hero) for 1500 each, and Unbowed and Unbroken would be nice if you are looking to be a rock in your teams defensive line, and that's a big chunk toward rank 8 , from 7 at least.

Umbranus said:

Crimson Fists Dev here, this is relevant to my interests. Let me just start by saying that I like the Sound Consitution approach - anything that gives an IF/CF additional resilience is in style. Beyond that I do not see the problem as much as you do because at that point you can buy advancement from many table for most available ranks. I am sure you'll be able to find a nifty advance that you didn't have the xp to buy yet because other stuff was cooler.

Also don't forget that you can opt to go for a advanced specialty at that point.

You're right that the Dev advances at that point are not as overwhelming as the Assault's. But do they have to be? You're likely pretty close to be maxed out, you are a **** tough guy in cover-to-cover firefights, you will have the finest equipment one can have including advanced ranged targeting upgrades... you can focus on rounding out the character.

Alex

Random, OT question: can Tacticals get Wall of Steel/Step Aside at all?

What makes me frown is that the dev gets tech use way later than the general advance. Yes it is cheaper, but if you want it you'll already have it till rank 6. So it's just plain useless and nothing but an excuse for not giving him just 2 advances on rank 6 and 7.

Why I don't go "yea, more sound constitution on rank 8!" is that once you reach a certain amount of wounds it just dosn't do "enough" for the price.
When you have 20 wounds an additional is an increase of 5%. If you have 25 the next one only is 4% increase and so on.

• Statistics are a point, yes.
• Bolter Drill is nice if you are in tight quarters and have to use your pistol, yes (I don't plan on using the HB) but it's rank 4 or 5 dev advance.
• I have to look up unbowed and unbroken, don't have that in mind.
• I will take last man standing from general.

So yes, I probably will find enough to advance and this is probably just a whine post, but when I saw the last three ranks my first indea was to my newly made dev.

@Siranui: What has Step Aside to do with close combat? You can dodge bullets as well as blades.

Sadly the more I occupy myself with deathwatch, the more it feels like an interesting fan project that has really good ideas but isn't able to hold a candle to the original (Dark Heresy).

Umbranus said:

To be fair, it is not that easy to built an epic campaign on top of a ruleset that has been designed for a low-level campaign. And Deathwatch in my opinion is of professional grade but it is apparently a rush job. I would guess they had to meet the release date even though they might have needed some more months to make everything completely sound.

But I don't see it all as dramatic as you do. At that point, you can pour for example xp into Strong Minded from Deathwatch Rank 7. Very fitting for an IF.

And:
Don't forget that you can probably pour some more XP into distinctions where other specialites like the Assault need to save their money for advances like Preternatural Speed to be competitive.

Devastators do not need many talents to be among the most dangerous specialties in a kill-team if not the most. (The rivals being a high rank Assault from a CC chapter, a Tactical with Bolter Mastery and of course the Librarian.) The Devastator is dangerous due to his gear and the raw skill with which he uses it.

The Tech-Use thingie is a nuisance though. Contact FFG, maybe they'll revise this, just like they have revised many other such nonsensical advance set-ups. (The highlight for me being the Watch Captain and the Command skill.)

Alex

SubtleCadaver said:

Nope. Tacticals are not a hybrid melee/ranged class. They're a hybrid ranged/leader class.

Siranui said:

Oh, right. Thanks for clarifying.

What has Step Aside to do with being a melee class?
Are only melee classes allowed to have survival talents?
If so, why?

It's not strictly a melee talent, but Tacticals and Devs don't get it. Not that it's any use at all once you have Terminator armour, anyway. Other classes get plenty of other stuff instead, and plenty of it is also focused on defence, including all those lovely extra wounds.

It's just the way the cookie crumbles. Not everyone gets everything. Maybe it's to balance out Devs being ungodly machines of sheer destruction.

I think the crux of your comment is: 'I don't think Devestators are good enough, they should get more stuff'. I'd recommend that you play one at various play levels before leaping to that conclusion, as the general feeling is that -if anything- they're far too good.

To the OP, I would suggest some skills like a few lores. Surely your PC has some other interests besides I shoot stuff. As far as useful skills for a devastator, I would take Evaluate for examining weak points. The various Tactics skills might come in handy also. For attributes might I suggest Intelligence (for Evaluate) and Perception (for noticing stuff) other than BS. Other skills might include Awareness, Stealth. As far as talents go Rapid Reaction is never bad. This way its harder for those with the on you to attack you and you be helpless. Hopefully that was somewhat helpful.

If you dont mind spending the xp, you can go into the Deatwatch Champion specialty and pick up wall of stell and/or step aside.

Siranui said:

That's not really it.
What bothers me is that there is nothing to look forward to once I reach rank 5.

I'm already thingking about which cool talent could better be shifted to a later rank. Doing that would weaken the char but make him nicer to play to higher ranks.
I already had that with other chars in other games. At some point they were done, cound not really become better anymore (at what I wanted them to be good) so they got boring and I stopped playing them.

You mean apart from relic wargear ($$$$!!!!), distinctions, stat-ups, speciality classes, and a ton of rounding-out skills?

Work out the amount of XP you'll have by then and see how far it goes. Not far enough!

Siranui said:

Yeah, that's true. However , they don't get any shooting related talents to look forward too.

Alex

@ AK-47 & Umbranus

So the only thing worth looking forward too is shooting talents?

By the time you hit rank 3-4 worrying about how much of a big bad combat monster you are shouldn't be a priority. You should be expanding your capabilities as an individual through the exploration of skills that most space marines will never, ever have the opportunity to learn.

Knowledge is power, any moron can shoot a gun and stab people.

at that level/rank, you should already be king of shooting. look at taking skills that help round out the group. imperial fists get super cheap tactics skill. take some that the leader/tactical marine doesnt have. this will give you more utility and not make you one dimensional.

ItsUncertainWho said:

This.

It's massively liberating to get the 'killy stuff' out the way of, and know that you're the best you can be. It means that you can get on with other stuff.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Tsk. All I said was that the IF Dev doesn't get too much in the way of becoming better at his chosen specialty at this point unlike the Assault, which is not ideal from a gaming perspective.

ItsUncertainWho said:

This has been pointed out above.

Alex

ak-73 said:

Perhaps its a belated balancing mechanism for how broken Devs are from Rank 1.

harlokin said:

I think the Devs are alright, I think some of their weapons are overpowered.

Alex

Heh....you're right, I'm conflating Devs with the Heavy Bolter being very powerful.

That said, if the Heavy Bolter had been weaker it would have given more scope for Dev talents to make it better without breaking the game.

ak-73 said:

That's just the point.