I imagine this has been asked and answered long ago, but I did my best to search for it and came up empty: If an encounter tells/allows you to move to another location, can you take the clue tokens at the new location immediately, or does this only happen at the end of the movement phase (and if clues appear in your location via the mythos phase)?

For reference, here is the "Picking Up Clues" section as described under the movement phase (italics as written in the manual):

"Any time an ivestigator ends his movement in a location that contains Clue tokens, he may immediately take any or all of those Clue tokens. The investigator may not take any Clue tokens if he merely moves through the location and then continues his movement: He must end his movement in the location containing the Clue tokens."

I guess the confusing issue is that is says " ends his movement" rather than " ends movement phase ." I mean, it is still a kind of movement and you do end said movement in the location... Then again, this is detailed uner Phase II: Movement, so I could see it either way.

And apologies if this has come up a dozen or more times already or is printed in an abvious place, my search-fu is weak.

Edit : For clarity, since i think Coltsfan posted one while i was in the middle of typing and did not see my post, I will move it.

It has been discussed with no official clarification.

The rules state you can only pick up clues when you end your movement there - at the end of phase 2. And they also say you can grab any that are placed on you during Phase 5. The Phase 5 rule implies you can only get new clues, not one that might have been left over from the previous phases. So based on that, I would say you cannot pick up Clues if you happened to be moved in Phase 3. You would have to spend another turn their (ending Phase 2) to spend the time to investigate in order to pick up the Clues.

As far as i can tell, Coltsfan, yes, if a player has an encounter at a location, and that card moves him to another location, that player can pick up clue tokens in that new location. And here is my line of thinking, this is a direct quote from the official FAQ :

Arkham Encounters

Q: If a location card tells an investigator that he may move to another location and have an encounter there, what happens if the location has a monster and/or gate on it?

A: First, the investigator must successfully evade or fight any monsters at the location. If successful, the investigator has a normal Arkham Encounters Phase at the new location, following either the “Gate” or “No Gate” instructions on pages 8-9 of the rulebook.

Now, as per the rulebook, monsters are only evaded or fought during MOVEMENT PHASE. The rules are very clear on this, period. No discussion.

So, if Kevin Wilson (or whoever wrote the FAQ) tells us that if a card in one location sends us to a different location with a monster on it, and this counts as ending our move on the second location in terms of monsters, then we have to be consistent and say it counts as ending our movement there in terms of picking up clue tokens.

Otherwise how would you explain the logic of the question in the FAQ?

The only way to initiate combat in the arkham encounters phase is with a card that says a monster appears, and this is clearly not what happened. We were simply sent to another location, and that should not have triggered a combat, we should have only had to deal with the monster during our next move phase, and since in the above example there was a gate, we should be drawn through the gate with no monster encounter.

Unless, of course, my interpretation of the FAQ is correct and a card moving you counts as moving during the movement phase.

As Coltsfan points out, the rulebook states clearly that clues are only ever gained at the end of the movement phase, and if they appear on you in the Mythos Phase.

You are only extrapolating that you can also pick them up based on a ruling Kevin made in which it states that only a part of Phase 2 is repeated in Phase 3 under very specific circumstances . Based on your line of thinking it could also be said that since you are moving in Phase 3, why shouldn't you also have movement points in Phase 3 under the same circumstances? Or be able to use a Movement Phase item or ability during Phase 3 under such situations?

Elric91 said:

No, this is incorrect. Monsters can be evaded and fought in Phase 3 and Phase 4 as well. So it is more correct to say that you can fight and evade monsters at any time that you are instructed to engage them and Phase 2 is one of those times - either when you end your movement or you try to leave a space with a monster in it.

I am not sure I follow the logic of the FAQ supporting a person to pick up Clues. Just because a Phase 3 encounter tells you to move elsewhere and engage any monsters there, does not mean the game rewinds to Phase 2 and you can deal with any Phase 2 options, such as picking up Clues. The logic would be on par with saying that because an encounter tells you to adjust a Skill slider, and skill sliders are only adjusted in the Upkeep phase, that I can now collect my Retainer money again or refresh my weapons and spells.

Personally, I think an investigator should be able to pick up Clues in their location if it is the end of Phase 5. I think the intent of the Phase 2 Clue pick-up was that, typically, where you end your movement in Phase 2 is where you end your turn (with the exception of a gate that would move you in Phase 3 or 5 to the OW, but then Clues wouldn't be at that location anyway since the gate cleared them out!). I also think the clarification that you can pick up Clues in Phase 5 supports this interpretation as well.

But again, this is just my personal opinion on how it should play out. Based on the current rules and FAQs, you can only pick up Clues at the end of Phase 2 and grab newly placed Clues at the end of Phase 5. But if someone wants to lobby Kevin to change his mind so that you can grab any Clues at the end of any phase, I am all for it. (By the way, I think Kevin changed his mind on this very same FAQ answer - originally he ruled that you could ignore the monsters since, like you said, you typically only engage existing monsters in Phase 2. So there is precedence for him to change his mind.)

First, monsters tokens on the board are ever only fought in phase 2. Period. The only time we fight in phase 3 or 4 is if a card tells us to do so. if you have different information, please show me a page number.

Your arguement about movement points and items makes no sense. Things like tomes and motorcycles clearly say they must be used in the movement phase, and if there is any item that grants movement points in any phase ( i cant think of any, most clearly say : Movement on them), but if there is, its also clear that the only things we can do in phase 3 are :

1) Draw a card

OR

2) Get drawn through a gate.

We cannot move, we cannot go anywhere, those are not part of the listed actions allowed for phase 3. So, since most movement point items are clearly marked movement phase only, if there is one or two that says any phase, then i would argue they are fair game in any phase.

FaQ are not intended to make an added rule, but to clarify existing rules, and the rulebook clearly states, just as clearly as the clue token rule you just quoted, that monsters are only dealt with in phase 2. Not phase 3, not phase 4, not phase 5.

None of his questions added a rule that contradicted an existing one, he merely filled in places that were confusing.

You say : Kevin is adding a rule that says if you get a card that you relocate to somplace else, any monsters must be fought. Ok, that is a possibility.

I say : Kevin is merely extending the phase 2 end of movement conditions to phase 3, stating if a player moves for any reason in phase 3 he is subject to all the end of movement conditions from phase 2.

I am not saying we add retainers because of a slider move card, i am saying he is extending the end of movement conditions found in phase 2 to phase 3.

So, in my opinion, and i am allowed my opinion, he was not trying to contradict his own game rules, he was trying to clear up a question on a movement based card : does it count as movement ending conditions for all intents and purposes, or am i teleported to the location?

I do realize that there is more than one way to interpret what he said, and as long as you admit it as well, we can agree to different interpretations.

In my mind, why in the world would kevin make us backtrack to phase 2 and resolve a phase 2 action before resolving a phase 3 card draw? that makes no sense.

And that, to me, if we look at it in context with all the other question and answer format entries, none of them added rule x when rule y clearly said rule x was illegal.

You are suggesting he added something into a FaQ that was intended to ramp up the difficulty of the game, and i simply do not agree. That is not the way i have seen him work. He adds options such as heralds and scenarios, and in a FaQ he would not add something that went against the rules, in order to make it harder. That simply is not the place for that.

I think he was trying to clarify the card, and tell us it said :

If a card says move to someplace else, you move as if you were moving during the movement phase to that new location, and of course you fight/evade monsters that are there, and then are drawn through the gate.

Thats my interpretation, and i think it matches the context of the book better than yours, and of course if i am moving as if i am moving during the movement phase, that includes clue tokens.

"Things like tomes and motorcycles clearly say they must be used in the movement phase"

Yes they must. My point exactly. The rulebook also clearly states that clues can only be picked up in Phases 2 & 5, and nowhere in the FAQ or official rulings list on the old forum does it say otherwise.

"I say : Kevin is merely extending the phase 2 end of movement conditions to phase 3, stating if a player moves for any reason in phase 3 he is subject to all the end of movement conditions from phase 2."

You'd think that if that was what he meant, his answer would have stated it, instead of stating only that you fight/evade, then have a normal Encounter Phase at that Location. He is generally quite concise on such things.

And also, let me ask you, why did Kevin change his mind? it could be that he thought since the card says you are moving, and technically movement ended at a monster, that the phase 2 condition applied to you.

Monster tokens and clue tokens are both tokens on a board, and both say ending movement there causes interaction with them.

Why would a card that moves you to a location on a board, lets say there is both a hound of tinalados token and a clue token there, why would a card that tells you to move there cause you to interact with one and not the other?

I think there is a possibility Kevin would agree with me.

thorgrim said:

Wow lol, you think Kevin is concise?

How could he possibly have missed the issue on the patrol wagon if he was consise? A blind man should have seen that coming.

Or how about lily chen's toggle ability making her immune to yig?

I think its totally stupid to send a player to a location that makes them fight monsters there, and in the same space tell them that they cant take clues.

Picking up clue tokens at the end of the mythos phase makes even less sense than this arguement,the player spend no time invesigating to get said clue, so why in the world did kevin put it in the rules? But it is in the rules, so its leagal.

Well, in any case, i qualified at the very top post that it was my opinion, and i am going to stick with it even if i am cheating, because if i get a card that says move someplace, i am going to move there and interact with every token on the board in that location or none at all.

I think Kevin was saying at the end of a movement from a card i have to resolve all the end of movement clarifications that apply from the movement phase, that may not be the literal of what he said, but until i see it was not the intended spirit of the rule change, i will not agree that anyone who does this is cheating.

To the original poster of this question : we have all qualified our posts as opinions and i will send in a rules call for kevin to answer for us.

To coltsfan and thor, it was not my intent to make anyone mad, and i was just tryin to monitor the boards and help out. If i sound arguementative i apologize, i love debates.

"Wow lol, you think Kevin is concise?

How could he possibly have missed the issue on the patrol wagon if he was consise? A blind man should have seen that coming.

Or how about lily chen's toggle ability making her immune to yig?"

Unfortunately there is sometimes a large discrepancy between what one person thinks is concise, and what another can misread time and again. Also, FAQs don't really work on any kind of deadline, but releasing a game does, and oftentimes deadlines can force such things through no fault of the designer's hand.

"And also, let me ask you, why did Kevin change his mind? it could be that he thought since the card says you are moving, and technically movement ended at a monster, that the phase 2 condition applied to you."

I have no idea why Kevin changed his mind, and I'm pretty sure you have about as much of an idea as I do, because I'm pretty sure neither of us are psychic. It could also be that he thought monsters don't care whether you are poking around being all investigator-y (gathering clues) or just chatting to some stranger on the sidewalk (having an encounter), they will still attack you just for being there.

Remember, in the thematic essence of the game, the movement phase is quite a large portion of "Arkham Time". It's not a quick thing to walk halfway across town, and gathering clues is not just like walking up to Silver Twilight Lodge and opening the letterbox, and BEHOLD! a clue! It is something that takes time, searching rooms, trying to avoid those you don't want to know you are spying on, flipping through books, looking for scraps of paper in an office. You fight monsters before picking up clues because monsters will actively track you down while you are there. Once you deal with them you then spend time searching for clues.

"Monster tokens and clue tokens are both tokens on a board, and both say ending movement there causes interaction with them."

You are far oversimplifying the difference between the two. Using that kind of twisted logic I could potentially argue that sealing a gate making a skill check and spending 5 clues should remove a Doom Token from the Doom Track. Why? Because making a skill check and spending 5 clues closes and seals the gate, same as an Elder Sign, and the rules don't say I shouldn't remove a Doom Token this way, so therefore it MUST have been the intent that you could. Which, by the way, I know is an absolute load of horse dung.

"I think there is a possibility Kevin would agree with me."

I think there is a possibility Kevin would agree with any number of arguments/reasons/answers to any number of questions/problems/grey areas that get argued time and again here on the boards. But he hasn't. Lets wait till the new and updated FAQ comes out (hopefully not too far after Innsmouth) before we make any judgment calls on whose side he will take in most of those arguments.

Elric91 said:

Except, this part was over-ruled by Kevin in the answers thread over on the old forums IIRC. That if you get moved to another location, you DON'T fight the monster.

*does a little digging*

"Monsters and movement as a result of an encounter (01/02/07)
When moved to another location by an encounter, you don't have to fight/evade monsters in either location. At least, not immediately. Combat as a result of such movement only occurs during the movement phase. During the encounter phase, you only have to worry about monsters popping up to attack you as a result of an encounter. "

The gate seal with clue tokens specifically says take the token from the UNUSED pile of signs, not the ancient one.

I am not saying we are going to go around breaking the intent of the game for personal gain. for that matter there are posted "house rules" on the official site as a download, so if i wanted to end this discussion id tell the first poster to simply make a house rule stating one way or the other, and you are perfectly official, unless you want to say the game designer is cheating by making a house rule that gates do not automatically suck players through, and that they can choose not to go inside.

You can make a house rule about anything you want actually, if its fun to your group, i could rule each OW has 4 spaces instead of 2, and as long as i posted it that i was changing the rules to a house rule, its not cheating. Im following a rule that says i can ignore rules and make house rules heh, i just would not qualify for tournements or anything. But im heading off track here, the point is im not trying to butcher the rules by using clue tokens to remove doom tracks on a gate seal, i am trying to understand why kevin made that rule.

I have sent Kevin a question asking the intent behind the ruling so i can play it the way kevin had intended it to be played, not based on how he may have worded it before something unintended was brought to him.

Its like the livre d'ivon in kingsport, it says to discard to get the check, but the intent is probably meant to be exaust. Well, we might be cheating if we dont discard it after the first try, because it is more powerful than many of the other tomes, perhaps the second discard was an accident because they were so used to putting that there?

Well, now we have another intent issue, the rules clearly say discard the tome then roll, the intent is probably to exaust. So if someone goes with exaust, is he cheating? well, i could use every last one of these same arguements against you, and you could use mine against me, he techincally is cheating, because he is not following the rules and there is no errata yet on it, yet if the intent was exaust and not discard then isnt it better to follow the intent?

Kevins intent may have been 'i think ill just extend the end of movement rule of phase 2 into phase 3 to include this crazy card based movement issue, i have way too much work on my mind to deal with that"

That is every bit as much of a possibility as any other possibility you can think up. And if that was the intent, we would do the end of movement rule found in phase 2 in its whole, not picking and choosing certain parts based on what we think sounds good.

And what is the end of movement rule? what do we do when we finish moving? the end of movement rule in phase 2 says we do 2 things when we finish moving, we may immediately pick up clues and we must fight or evade monsters.

Thats why i stated right off the bat it was my opinion, and that i was trying to see the intent behind a rule, so we could have something official.

I personally play the livre d'ivon, and any other cards i believe to be a mistake the way i believe the intent was, not some literal mummified body of rules where i cannot think for myself. I try and see if there was an intent behind a rule.

I have sent the question on to Kevin, and the automated reply i got said wait 7 - 14 days, i will post the reply word for word either way, and if i am wrong i will admit it.

Dam said:

Hmm, if thats the case players definately would not be able to pick up clue tokens, my only issue with it was based on the hypothetical intent of a combat rule.

Of course that could be the original ruling coltsfan mentioned, before kevin changed it. Just how many times has this rule changed? are you sure this is the most recent ruling dam? the kingsport rulebook still says players have to fight right away.

I think one thing we can agree upon is that the rules are inconclusive about this. As such, it's up to player fiat.

There's only one clear prohibition for getting clues from the board: You can't do drive-by investigations by spending your movement points getting in and out of multiple locations in the movement phase. This makes a whole lot of sense from a game balancing standpoint.

Prohibiting investigators from getting clue tokens due a specific Arkham encounter which lets you move to another location? Not so much.

Many Arkham encounters already let you gain clues directly. I see no problem with getting clues indirectly due to an Arkham encounter that lets you move.

You are right, we do not have anything clear in the rules about fighting existing monsters on the board and the only thing that is solid is you fight them in Phase 3. But the FAQ answered that. I don't think we can claim that Phase 2 now overlaps Phase 3 so the logical conclusion is that an exception was made.

Why did Kevin change his mind? Not sure. But I assume that he initialy ruled that you could ignore them just like you would if a monster dropped on you in Phase 5. But if a monster does drop on you in Phase 5, you would have to deal with it during the next Phase 2 as both of you would still be there.

But with you now moving in Phase 3, there is the potential that the encounter moves you to a place with a gate. And if it has a gate, you are to move through it (since it is Phase 3). If a monster is guarding it, there would be no way to engage the monster so you just got into the OW "for free." Also, if you just moved as instructed on the card, you could then be exposed to a gate opening on your location in Phase 5 and again be moved tot he OW without engaging the monster guard.

So his initial reaction was that you just follw the rules as written and avoid the monster. But he then he started thinking about it and preferred to have a monster guard actual guard the gate so changed his mind. Engaging a monster was more important to him than follow the original rules. So an FAQ was created to address the exception.

This is all fine and dandy. But the FAQ is specifically about enganging monsters. It says nothing about Phase 2 and more importnatly about picking up clues. It is a non sequitur argument. So the rules as written, and the FAQ as written, do not overturn the rules: Clues can only be picked up in Phase 2 and in Phase 5 if they are dumped on you.

It is not a matter of being right or wrong on the interpretation. That is what the rules say. But like I already said, I don't like this rule, I want it changed, but their is nothing in the rules to support my argument either. So yes, only Kevin can overrule it. I look forward to his answer. Burt a word of caution, I have been trying to get open rules answered, this included, for the better part of a year. The 7-14 days means little.

Hannibal Rex said:

I'm sorry. I don't agree that the rules are inconclusive about this. I think the rules state that you get clues at the end of Phase 2, movement phase, and if they appear on you during Phase 5, mythos phase.

Any extrapolation based on what you think the FAQ is supposed to mean or the intent of the designer is opinion. The fact is that the rules CLEARLY state when clues are available.

Why do people insist on arguing that what is written in the rule book is not the "correct" way to play the game?

I do agree that in some instances things are unclear. This isn't one of those instances.

However anyone really is free to play the game any way they like. I think It is very confusing for people who aren't sure about rules to come here and get this giant arguement about the how people think the game should be played vs. what is written in the rulebook.

The rulebook is indeed extremely clear: you don't fight monsters and you don't get the clue. You are moving, but it's not the movement phase so you don't take movement phase actions.

Kevin has stated semi-officially that the intention of those encounters is that you do fight monsters on the way in. This is what you would do if the movement were treated as a tiny movement phase. Therefore it is reasonable to assume that the designer intent was that you would pick up those clues.

Frankly, I don't even know why you pick up clues or fight monsters in your final space at the end of movement instead of "during Arkham Encounters, befre drawing a card." It doesn't change anything in a way the designers seem to like, nor does it in any way alleviate confusion. As things currently stand, the rules clearly say that when you make out with the geology student in the Black Cave that you don't get the clues and get to sneak past the monsters there for free. And designer intent seems to clearly be that this was a mistake. But the designers are also not in the business of really clarifying that in any kind of real way, so whatever.

-Frank

Well, this got a lot more hostile than I expected, but thanks to those actually trying to help.

But since the can of dholes is open, I'd like to say that dealing with monsters occurs (or at least starts) during movement. It's my understanding that combat is what ends your movement, not the other way around, whereas picking up clues happens after movement (and combat) ends. A minor distinction, but considering the use of the phrase "end-of-movement actions," I felt it should be said.

At any rate, I think I'll just put it to a vote with my group: either deal with monsters AND pick up clue tokens (in that order, as normal) or neither. Either way, you go through any gates there since that happens in phase 3 anyway.

I'll keep an eye out for any official ruling, though.

GrandMarquis said:

I dont really think any of us got really hostile. I admit things got a little heated, but when you boil down to the brass tacks, thor and coltsfan are correct, if you strictly adhere to the letter of the rules, then clue tokens would not be picked up.

My main arguement all along was kevins intent versus rules mummification, as if we stricly adhere to the rules at all times we would be forced to play the wrong way with a card that we know to be a typo, such as the black cave card or the livre d'ivon, because "thats what the rules say", I thought kevins intent was to give us a mini movement phase and that we would resolve it that way.

Now that coltsfan has pointed out Kevins intent, i somewhat retract my earlier views, since kevin didnt want players to breeze through portals. But if that intent was to control portals because he wanted a portal guardian, why would we have to interact with a monster if there is not a portal? The FaQ also clearly stats that even if there is just a monster, and no portal, it must be fought/evaded before drawing a location card, so i begin to wonder if kevin even thinks about these things before changing his mind back and fourth on a whim.

I still think a rule should apply to everything, though my opinion is not supported by any rules. In my opinion if a movement inducing card makes us interact with a monster, then we should be able to interact with other tokens there as well, after all its only fair.

I am still lobbying to kevin to get this changed into an official ruling, but until then i say if you want to adhere to the rules, leave clue tokens on the board, if you want to pick up clue tokens, just make a house rule and do whatever you have fun with.

I will post kevins reply if it ever comes in, but from coltsfan's experiences it sounds like kevin is the type of person that ignores his email for months on end, so it may take awile.

And If you think this discussion was hostile, then you obviously have not seen some of the other discussion threads that i have.

I never thought this thread was hostile. There are certainly other ones that are.

I just want to make it clear that I do not know what kevin's intent was. I was merely speculating on what I thought his reasoning might be. I also don't want to make it sound like Kevin never answers emails. He has, and I have had more luck with single questions. I have been trying to get a slew of questions answered and working with JR to accomplish that. Last I heard, JR got a bunch answered from Kevin about 4 or 5 weeks ago. But with the holidays, JR hasn't had the time to type it up and post it yet.

Finally, I am not sure that Kevin flippantly answers FAQs. I am only aware of this issue, the issue with Duke granting +1 Sanity at the beginning of the game, and maybe 1 other answer that was reversed. Two things that hamper Kevin: 1) He appears to be overworked. I updated the Cosmic Encounter title, been working on Arkham and Descent expansions, gave birth to Android, and aI am sure there are a couple other recent projects I left off. So to keep it all straight and get an answer nailed down is hard. 2) The AH universe is huge. Most of the expansions are designed to be with the base game only and so weird combos come up when you start mixing and matching. But even within a single expansion, the interactions can be too numerous to test out.

So I just want to make sure my words didn't give the wrong impression of Kevin.

Back to topic. I think we all agree now that the ruels are clear - Clues only on Phase 2 and 5 (if dropped on you). FAQ makes it clear monsters are dealt with if you enter a space in Phase 3 due to an event. And most of us would like the Clue pick-up modified so you can pick them up at the end of other phases. All those in favor say Aye!

Aye ; )

Actually I house-ruled this a bit; I treat Clues appearing during Phase 1 (via Hypnos) just like those appearing during Phase 5, so you can take those immediately.

By the way, about Clues appearing on you during Mythos Phase: are you allowed to take those if you have the "Double Vision" Injury (You may not pick up Clues from the board put can gain them through other means)? Rules are not clear if the Clue is placed on the board and then immediately picked up or if it goes to the Investigator directly.

Aye. Though I will continue in my games to allow clue pick-up with such encounters anyway, because if you're getting a free ride to a location for the purposes of investigation, why wouldn't you be able to find any "clues" in that area?

I think part of the reason these discussions will get so heated is that these new forums are making us crazy.

By the way, about Clues appearing on you during Mythos Phase: are you allowed to take those if you have the "Double Vision" Injury (You may not pick up Clues from the board put can gain them through other means)? Rules are not clear if the Clue is placed on the board and then immediately picked up or if it goes to the Investigator directly.

Huh. I don't know if there's a rule for it, but I would say no. The clues are not appearing on the investigator; they're appearing in the location.

A definite Aye on this -- it's a definite house rule for me at this point.

Tibs said:

As Tibs pointed out, Mythos Clues go to the board first. An investigator may then choose to pick them up or leave them. So that implies they do not go directly to the investigator.

"Other means" would be trading in trophies at the Science Building, gaining them through Encounters, Tomes, etc.