Greetings, brethern,

as part of some wannabe-headhunters ambush, I plan to get my pc to be attacked by one or two "attack dogs". Perhpas modified, perhaps not.

Whenever it comes to combat with certain "critter" typs, I wonder how to best depict them ruleswise. The regular close combat rules for this game (and nearly any other game I know) are written with two armed humans in mind.

If I think about a dog attacking a human, this is a different picture. As far as I have seen it on TV, dogs go for the limbs and lock there jaws around it. Then, they bite down as hard as they can and try to tear the human down.

How would you depict this ruleswise? Any constructive input is welcome.

Well, you could play the initial attack like normal (maybe with Brutal/Berserk Charge (i.e. the one that gives an additional +10 to hit)). When the initial attack hits, the target counts as grappled or you could consider the initial attack itself as a grappling attack. After this, the target counts as grappled in regard to his own actions and those trying to help/assist him. In further rounds the dog can do certain amounts of damage without needing to hit (as per grapple) or you could apply some sort of suffocation damage instead (for hits to the head/throat).
In WFRP 1st ed. I remember the rules for Wild Cats who doubled their amount of attacks when the initial attack hit home (due to leaping on top of the victim). That might be another – but in my opinion not so fitting – option.

You should also give the afflicted player a bonus to hit the dog, as it will be quite hard to miss being locked on to the character's leg. I used to work with dogs & have broken up dog fights. I've even had an 85 lb. dog on my own arm! There is very little manuvering involved once the "lock" occurs. Leveling a pistol, or stabbing with a blade would be quite easy. And just so no one gets the wrong idea about my background (thinking dog-fighting), I worked in the pet industry for 16 years, including a boarding facility that cared for police dogs. They are trained for aggresion & to only obey their handlers, so incidents did occur from time to time.

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

Thank you very much! I hoped for input from people with a background like yours. Sometime, the internet is good for other things then flamewars with people from god-knows-where over nobody-cares.

I think I will give the the "human" a +20 bonus then. As you mentioned 40kg dogs pulling at... do you thing larger breeds (like a Rottweiler) would have a chance to pull somebody down to the ground? Or is just so that the human will not be able to flee as long as the dog is locked with him? I know about large dogs being trained to jump people to bring them to the ground... but I am not sure about pulling. Perhaps if they get the leg?

You're welcome very much - - - That depends on a lot of variables. A 40K Rottweiler could indeed subdue a human, especially if trained to do so. I think that you can use the grapple rules to simulate this, perhaps with a few tweaks. It should not be automatic, but at the very least all of that weight actively pulling on the victim will slow them down. I'm thinking "Opposed Movement" like maybe an opposed strength check to represent such a tug of war. All this would allow for realism. A Rottweiler would hang off an ogryn like a bracelet, but could drag a ratling all over. I'd probably give the victim a small bonus here, as the dog would have poor leverage, reversed if the victim is prone/off balance.

You might also consider a Fear (1) rating for an attack dog, maybe Intimidate +10 or something similar if Fear is too much. People are instinctively afraid of animals that aggressive.

I like Intimidate as a free action. I'd only use Fear if it's a true beast, like a horrible-looking xenos animal.

I was thinking along the lines of a gene-bulked Mastiff myself. Something roughly the size of a small bear seems appropriate for 40K.

It does. Scary too!

What would be the effect of the Intimidation test?

Hey Gregorius. You contribute so much to these forums (thanks) that It is nice to have the opportunity to offer something to you for a change.

I don't think the rules need changing, it is after all an abstract system to facilitate roleplaying. This is how I would handle it:

1. Charge/beserk Charge,

2. All out attack,

3. Knock-down/Takedown/Grapple. Checks must be made as per normal though.

Wrangling give basic rules for training animals, and this training can give the dog everything it needs to improve Knockdown to Takedown. No need to change the rules with apprpriate talents. The player won't be expecting the dog to grapple them. Just remeber, when they're in a frenzy dogs don't fear much at all but outside of that they can be intimidated and scared with a show of force.

I'm not so keen on giving them a fear rating. It doesn't balance with the rest of the game and smacks just a bit too much of 'lets frak over the party!' Why would a couple of rottweilers have a fear rating when ten ganger-scum with daggers, crossbows and autoguns don't? Only hit them with a fear test if you REALLY think it is appropriate, I would be more afriaid of myself with a shotgun and murder in mind than I would of a dog in most situations (especially if surprise is not a factor).

Dogs don't have an (effective) rake attack like felines do, nor do they employ one, so multiple extra attacks following a successful hit are not appropriate. We've all seen it on TV - they drag their prey to the ground and then worry at it/go for the throat.

Oh yeah, and compared to people dogs are dumb. Especially trained ones that don't realise just how vulnerable the latch-on-to-arm takedown manoeuvre makes them, especially if the person on the recieving end has friends nearby and they are armed.

However, if the 'dogs' you're unleashing on the party are the size of a Grox/Hippopotomus then that's a different matter all together - kill 'em all.

"Jungo think stupid little doggy aliens just as squishy and die like any other meatbags!"

Jungo Max: Feral World Assassin

-And it goes without saying that the primary purpose of guard dogs are as noisemakers. I've been itching to run Deathwatch scenario where the Killteam has to infiltrate an Ork camp and sabotage an important piece of equipment- the only problem is that it is guarded by attack squigs. Squigs are absolutely no threat to a power armoured Space Marines in combat, of course, but they are noisy as hell. I think it will be funny to see if the Killteam can forego their mighty (and noisy) ranged weapons and dispatch the yapping squigs with their seldom-used combat knives before the racket wakes up the Orks and gives them time to set up heavy weapon emplacements to deal with the invaders. Who knows- a few lowly squigs may lead to some Space Marines having to burn Fate...

from france

i disagree dog are like human in the sense that you havec the same chance to have a dumb dog than a clever one.

first untrained dog will try to catch the weakest menbers. it will try to catch whatever is exposed.

second a trained dog can attack the most dangerous areas especially if it can sense that they are unprotected leg, arms neck etc because they are trained to attack those areas. they should be able to aimed

third dogs are omnivores they are not only carnivores and they are afraid of specifique perfume and sounds.

four dog can be enhanced be it the brain or claw and that make them even more dangerous or useless see the third book of einsenhor

fith dog can jump vertically depending on the race that can be a surprise

six a dog can "smell" warp and usally bark or hide when it happen so having one has its use.

seven i prefer cat

the 8 spider said:

Eight: Spider

(sorry, but his pun was to be made!)

@ll
Thanks for you input. I am going to use it to brew up some rules/house rules for a certain breed of attack dog which I inteded to use in said ambush on my pc.

from france

Eight: Spider

(sorry, but his pun was to be made!)

well doesn't matter i don't know whatit means. it a reference to the necromundian regiment.

@ Adeptus-B Have you checked out the 'For Profit or Plunder' thread in the Rogue Trader forum? An excellent campaign write up in which the PCs have earned the service of some Ork freebooters. In the latest episode an ork who asked why they are following the 'stupid ummies' got his head bitten clean off by the Kapitan's pet squig - Good value and worth a read.

"Jungo knows doggy eat own ****, and doggy eat rubber ball, so that makes Jungo think doggy stupider than feral worlder."

Jungo Max: Feral World Assassin

Spiders have eight legs.

@Eight Spider
Well, the pun was not very funny, I suppose. It was just that the next point in your line would have been "eight". Matching to your nickname

P.S: If somebody wants some actual information about dogs in order to turn them into the hellish 40K monsters which they are not , have a look here
http://www.nzkc.org.nz/dogselect.html

[Attackdog Profile ]
A large dog, breed and trained for power, courage, a mean bite and fighting ability.

WS: BS: S: T: AG: INT: PER: WP: CH: Wounds: Movement: Damage:
30 - 30 30 30 15 36 40 - 9 5/10/15/30 1w10+2; Primitive; Tearing (Bite)

Skills: Awareness(+10); Silente Move; Swim; Tracking; Intimidation
Talents: Sprint;
Traits: Bestial; Quadruped; Natural Weapon (Bite); Berserk Charge; Resistance(Fear); Double Team; Hard Target; Goaded*; Specially Trained:**; Size:Scrawny

Goaded* : Introduced in "Tattered Fates": the creature is trained for combat and will even fight when injured or against stronger opponents. It gains +30 on
all willpower tests regarding damage, fear and flight.

Specially Trained:* *
The dog will go for an arm(Aimed Attack; -20). A successful attack will not only cause the listed damage (the bite) but will although mean that the dog locked his jaws around one of the arms, the right one on an even dice role, the left on an uneven. If the attack succeeded with two levels of success, the dog will have caught the “weapon arm”. This attack can be dodged but not parried. A succesful parry is merely a successful attack on the dog.

Arm locked:
As long as the dog does not let go off the pc´s arm, the following rules do apply. While both the pc and the dog counts as being in a grabble, the pc has the other arm free and can attack the dog or another target (in range) with any weapon he might have in that hand. To break the lock, the pc has either to kill the dog, make him lose a willpower test due to received damage, or to win an oppossed strenght test as in a grabble. The pc will be -10, so.

In addition, the following rules do apply:

- Unless the pc passes a difficult(-10) strenght test at the beginning of his turn (free action), the pc loses a half action (due to having something similiar to a rottweiler tearing on his/her arm)

- the dog will automatically inflict damage on the arm at the beginning of his round .

- The pc counts as being grabbled for purposes of attacks treated against him. As does the dog.

· The pc suffers -20 on all attacks against any other target (but the dog on his arm; on whom s/he will gain the +20 bonus)

- Optional: Pistols (or similar weapons) wielded by the pc will do maximum damage if the attack hits the dog

· As the pc tries to move, s/he has to pass a test for Strenght opposed by the dog. If the pc wins, s/he can move a number of meters up to one plus another one for every two levels of success achieved over the dog (up to his normal move). If the dog is smaller, the pc get´s a +15 bonus for one step of difference in the size trait for the Strenght test.

I think I will brew up some more over time, but then in a different topic. Thank you!

from france

yes i know spider have eight legs. what a discovery

it seem a good starts for me but i will use mono blade in place of theeth and claws like the criter employed by the beast house. but that just in case of more dangerous dog.

remenber that dog smell is far more accurate than human.

think also about the use of cat they are suposed to be half part of reality half part in the spirit world. they could act like canari in a mine.

after all you said criters not just dog.

Hi Spider,

yes, I opend up the topic with that. But at the moment, it is about dogs with me . I think I will use the existing topic for other creatures later, but this is a thing only time will tell.

You are right mit "mono teeth" for modified beast. But this "first try" is based on a dog a group of rather low-key criminals will have around. Thereby, I restrained my self for "cyberanting" the animal.

Of course, a dog with kybernetic implants and combat drug injectors would be FAR more dangerous.

Why the inability to parry? Balance reasons? I don't see any dog without serious biochem and cybernetic upgrades being able to bite through or around blades held in between its jaws and its target.

Hi UnusualSuspect:

The reason is to keep the dicing at minimum.

Would a fighter theoretically be able to bring blade between the jaws of an attacking and/or charging dog? Perhaps. But I guess that would be much hardert then... say, parry an incoming sword (sword is much easier to "hit" with your own weapon). And it would depend on the weapon used for this parry. A spear, for example, would be PERFECT to keep a charging animal at bay. But spears are not the usual arment of pc´s. A bat/cudgel might be good as well. But even better for hammering on the head of the charging do (which would be easier then putting it in his mouth).

And so on...

Thereby, I went for the "streamline solution"turned a successful parry into a succesful attack. If this is stunningkilling the dog,fine. Game over . Otherwise, I assume that the dog found a way to get the arm while he was hit. Combat rounds a rather abstract, my solution rather simple. Feel free to "house-overrule" it, so