I and my players love to try different things, or if im to be more precise same things looked from different angle. Curently im leading one big campaign, it started with DH accolytes uncovering certain problem, then many sessions later we jumped into DW to solve that problem with bolter and chainsword, then for a bit of taste little story from cultist side, then AdMech expedition and few others. Some take dozens of sessions, some are made for just few but very intensive, it always rotate around same history with different point of view.

And now i have problem. Eldar problem. DW is made in legendary cinematic space marine theme. I want to portrait Eldar in same cinematic style but eldar way. Super inteligent, arogant to extreme but very wise, agile and fluid movement, extraordinary fast, with firepower matching only their legendary arrogance...

I play and colect eldar army from times when Aspect warriors were introduced, many years. And yet i dont know how to portrait them. Unnatural Agility sound nice but its lame and useless in gameplay, unnatural speed just give u ability to run far more till u die...

i have made equipment, sketch of specialities (aspect temples) and their special rules, but i dont have idea how to make basic "eldar guy", so he/she have that eldar cinematic feel.

Any ideas ?

Why is unnatural agility useless? It makes dodging easier and more effective, plus makes Elder uber-stealthy, and ensure that they will have a huge initiative modifier.

Siranui said:

I have to agree.

Unnatural Agility is great. It's the I go first but you probably can't beat my stealth, if you do see me I'll dodge most things and be standing next to you before you realize I am there trait.

Just from the dodge stand point: UA x2 = on a successful dodge, no DoS, you automatically dodge 3 rounds from autofire.

compare it to unnatural WP, S, T, Int,

UAg gives u basicaly +10Ag (till difficulty level dont hit +30), doubles your base initiative and thats all. Only advantage is bonus to dodge. And Eldar arent stealthy race, more shiny bling than christmas tree, armour painted in screaming colours that make u blind if u look to much at them.

i consider not giving them any unnatural trait, just very high base Ag (something like 2d10+50), flat bonus +3 to speed, and few other "cinematic" race abilities. I consider allowing eldar next level of skills advancements (trained, +10, +20, +30, talented) but i fear that +40 bonuses are way to high even for cinematic eldar campaign. And some eldar only talents that enchance melee damage.

Yeah, I am.

Going first is a fight winner. It's getting in an entire round of combat before the other guy gets to do anything. So that's 3 free attacks with a powersword, and if they land, the other guy doesn't get to do a thing to you. That's *better* than unnatural Toughness.

In my experience, I'd agree that UA can be pretty powerful if played cleverly- an additional 4 or 5 initiative is pretty handy, and being able to dodge very well can be invaluable. Personally I think avoiding damage is much more "Eldar-like" than taking tons of it, but I'm not a huge eldar expert. I also view them as somewhat stealthy, maybe not all of them through skill, but at least through tech and attributes.

Unnatural Speed is a game changer for melee types, and for the over the top feel of DW a doubling of speed seems more in line than a basic +3 or the like- the ability to close distance with someone that isn't as good as you in melee is a very handy trait to have. Unnatural Willpower makes psychic monsters, as many powers get multiplied out by the WP bonus. Unnatural Intel/Fellowship are the only two I really see as not being super handy in combat (or the rest of the game- Intel helps with...skills and medicae, and fellowship would allow you to order around more guys?).

since all of players will be from Biel-tan craftworld an on aspect warrior path (SS, HB, DR, SH, FD,DA to be precise) fel will be in 2d10+10 range. Initiative speed is realy important in DW, as long as u can do any real damage after u hit, so as long as your super agility dont incrase also damage its of lower value in combat than unnatural S or T.

Tested unnatural Speed vs Flat +3 bonus, just as Charmander said unnatural speed trait works better so far, more fleet of foot feel. In case of UAg vs high starting Ag score i prefer later option, especially as i consider adding bonus from Ag to base melee damage (for aspect warriors only, now i work on many different ways to implement it in game, restricting mass cheese feel it creates being main problem)

As for now rest is realy mainstream, common list with Eldar advances, one base warrior list with rather expensive advances, specific Aspect Warrior Shrine advance list with very cheap ones. As all of them are after both guardian defender and guardian storm paths all will have advanced ranged and melee skills from start. All weapons, armours, aspect shrine unique skills, talents and equipment are done.

Base starting attributes, post guardian phase, its standard 2d10 (or spend points creation rules) +30 (WS, BS) +40 (Per, Int, WP) +25 (S, T) +10 (Fel) +50 (Ag) with USpeed.

So Astartes are much more interesting guests at dinner parties than those really rude Eldar?

I'm not sure why you've got their Fellowship so low. Shouldn't average for a species be consistent?

about Fel and Eldar, in fluff once eldar steps on path of warrior all else becomes unimportant, he is warrior and nothing else. In older codexes there even was nice story about eldar that is trapped/stuck on warrior path, he forget his friends, ones who he loved, his family and everything he was before he joined his aspect temple. Mentioned codex story was about exarch, but almost same fluff exist about eldar wearing their temple aspect masks/helmets. Also Biel-tan being most warlike craftworld with greatest hate for everything that isnt eldar should not be surprising as having low Fellowship.

boruta666 said:

As shiny as they are, in Dawn of War, Craftworld Eldar were the only ones who could cloak their own buildings . Their mastery over holograms is so good that they use them (holofields) on vehicles instead of armour.

They seem pretty stealthy to me.

Bilateralrope said:

DoWDow2 arent proper source of Wh40k lore, to mention that in one mission u could kill your space marine chapter dozen of times as longer battles could take even few thousands marine casualties. Not to mention that 2squads of IG+commisar is equivalent of similar SM force. And in DoW2 10 marines in 20 days destroy whole tyranid splinter fleet, ork waagheldar warhost.

And by fluff vehicle holofields dont make them invisible but extremely hard to lock onhit.

In case of eldar they rather chose place of battle carefullydont waste forces withouth need, but to call them stealthy is just wrong (dont count rangersSS)

From my experienceknowledge with Eldar from "table-top", here's my opinions on the characteristics you list;

They need to have a higher WS bonusBS bonus to reflect their aspect. Most Eldar have the same BS as a Space Marine in table-topthey usually have a superiour WS compared to a Space Marine. However, they have less StrengthToughness compared to a Space Marine. Agility needs to be high, because of the Initiative is high in table-top. Willpower needs to be high as well, as Eldar are more attuned to the psychic powersthe warp (hence the creators of Webway Portals,the inhabitors of the Web Way). Perception shoud be high as well, we are talking Eldar. Here's how I would compare then to table-top;

Weapon Skill +40, Ballistic Skill +40, Strength +20, Toughness +15, Agility +50, Intelligence +30, Perception +35, Will Power +40, Fellowship +25

What this does is the following; it reflects the quickness of the Eldar race, the gracefullness of how they wield a blade, the lack of strength (as Eldar train to make quick precise strikes against the foe,rely on their natural speed compared to brute strength), the lower toughness reflects the natural build of an Eldar, the agility shows the speedquickness, perceptionwillpower still shows how they use their "heighted" natural senses of the warpsurroundings,lastly Fellowship shows that they are still able to interact with each otherother races. Just because they are a warrior class doesn't mean they immediately throw out their trained Eldar skills. It simply means thay they've taken on the aspect of a warriorfrom that point on they are a warriordo what is neccessary to ensure the Eldar race survives. They still retain their earlier trained skills in dealing with each otherother Eldar/races.

Huh, I haven’t really thought about all the game ramifications of this one, but another way to up the cinematic feel might be to just give the Eldar another reaction. It would allow for more parriesdodges. This would give the added feel of their gracespeed,could even be a representation of latent minor psychic ability, they see a few moves ahead essentially.

Of course something showing their precision would work too. Now I seem to recall this being one of our house rulesnot in the core book, but we like to add DoS for damage on individual attacksshots. For example that one attack with 7 DoS slid into the weak part of the enemy’s armor as opposed to just hitting them solidly on their chest.

As for the fellowship debate, the BL book “Path of the Warrior” (not that canonical I know) seems to imply that when a normal aspect warrior removes their armor they remove that warrior path part of themselves. That all those negativeviolent emotions are tied to the armor,when they don it they become that aspect of war. In fact it’s the inability of the main character to separate himself from that part of his personality that serves as the one of the main plot points. I highly recommend giving the book a read if you’re an Eldar fan. A cool way to represent that might be a negative modifier to fellowship when wearing one’s aspect armor. Or, even actually changing the demeanor the characters use while in their aspect armor. Functionally giving each player the personality of their character when they wear their war mask,when they are normal craftworld citizens.

Anyway, just my thoughts, good luck on the game.

i thank all for ideas my creative GM writersblock seems to pass at least.

Mexican Ninja, your statlines for eldar are very similar to what i was thinkin first when i started this little "project", sure it have "cinematic" eldar feel, but sadly it would work much better on DH level of power, on DW level high gracegodlike swordsmanship gives u nothing if u cannot pierce AP+TB, (old WHFRP 1ed Elf vs Dwarf syndrome, universe lore vs stupidity of game mechanics)my sunday session will be on DW power level with main enemies being Chaos cultists with aid of Renegade Space Marines, loyalist forces in form of DW KTuncountable hordes of tyranids.

as for now its +40(WS,BS,WP,Int,Per), +50(Ag), +20(S,T,Fel), USpeed, Lightning Reflexes (with few aspect shrines ability to take it 2nd time), 2FP, 12W, with heavier armour being 9AP, lighter 7AP eldar realy need speed.

Spiritseer, thing with 2 base reactions are in, eldar realy should have it. In case of DoS adding to damage its one of 3 things i consider to resolve mechanic problem about godlike hit =/= damage inflicted.

1) AgB will be added to SB in case of damage.

2) WS test DoS will be add to damage, my favourite tbh.

3) WS test DoS will be added to melee penetration, better hit vs high armoured enemy means hiting weaker armoured spot.

And since they will not remove their armours i now realy dont need to wory about Fel.

boruta666 said:

You are correct about them needing to pierce AP+TB. However, look at the melee specialists; Scorpions, Banshees, Harlequins,look at the heavy shooters; Dark Reapers, Fire Dragons, then look at the support; Wraith Lords, Wraith Guard, weapons platforms in guardian units.

I understand that you are trying to stick to a strict aspect, however, Eldar need the support from other Aspects to succeed. Dark Reapers laying down suppressing fire while Harlequins advance on the enemy with a Wraith Lord following behind is something to fearrespect at the same time. And Seer Council's could be insane in DW.

i understand how Eldar army works quite well, i play it on TT,currently im very happy owner of 8k points army of them. Campaign is about 6 young aspect warriors, from different shrines, chosen by farseers and seer council to perform very specific quest far away from their craftworld influence zone and main swordwind forces. its not story about whole warhost adventures behind enemy lines, besides it will kill much of flavour if they will wander with Avatar, fire prisms, bunch of space clowns and horde of Guardians.

boruta666 said:

So they choose their place of battle carefully,engage the enemy without needlessly wasting their forces, but apparently they do this *without employing stealth*?

How do choose the place of battle? Send their enemies an invites saying "Farseer Caerys cordially requests your presence at a massacre, please assemble your forces by the abandoned webway gate in Arcturus sector, where it will be our pleasure to annihilate you."

And yes, Holo-fields don't make their ships invisible, but last time I checked Stealth Bombers weren't invisible either. Using technology to misdirect your enemies so that they can't actually target you until you're on top of them *is* a form of stealth. Stealth doesn't just mean black catsuitsninja masks.

I'd also add that Dawn of War *is* a perfectly reasonable source of 40K Lore - so much so that there are actually quotes in the DeathWatch core rulebook for Davin Thule - a character who was only created for the purposes of the video game.

Glad to see some people understand the concept of stealth beyond the idea of invisibility or 'not being seen'. One has to understand that if the enemy does not know where your forces are, then you are performing a stealthy operation. Regardless of how you achieve that effect, be it through sensor masking, sensor jamming(althrough it lets you know somebody is there...just not where), physical camo, electronic misdirection or strategic targetting of the enemies abilities to acquire intelligence...it all results in stealthy operations.

That being said, Eldar CERTAINLY are stealthy. Their mode of getting to battles is either through hard to detect ships or webway portals...both...very stealthy. And once they are on site, their stealth is still present. As plenty of mentioned there are the holofields, sensor masking systems(mentioned in the entries for such items as the Nightwing Interceptor),sensor absorbant armor/cloaks(Striking Scorpions, Rangers) and also...one must not forget...psychic powers. Warlocks have the 'Conceal' ability in TT which is a stealth oriented ability, Farseers have pretty solid intelligence to 'hide' their forces from the enemy through divinations...and there have been plenty of mention in novels of Eldar using psychic trickery to hide their forces or hinder opposing intelligence(I seem to remember a force of Tanith fighting beside some Dire Avengers whom they thought were their own forces from long-lost Tanith).

In game one would have to find some ways to make the Eldar a little more survivable than simply U:Ag. Reason being that all Space Marines come with a built in anti-dodge/parry ability called Killing Blow. Spend a Fate Point and for that round your attacks may not be dodged or parried. This means that the only way to NOT soak this damage is to hope for a miss from the Marine or a Protection Field. So perhaps there would be some way to enhance their survival rate by making them harder to hit, via a -WS/BS modifier to be hit. Perhaps the ability to still make accurate attacks while fighting defensively? Not sure, but something like this would probably be more functional than something Killing Blow can go right around.

Bobfather1980 said:

U already answered yourself brother, FP, normal adversaries do not have them, only some master level ones. No FP no Killing Blow.

Yesterday campaign was realy great, it was successfully enough that whole group decided that we definitely will stay with Eldar for much longer time. (that mean i need more polish for eldar rules sadly) Besides great RP from my players i was simply in awe of their team work in combat, six different aspects working as godlike killing machine.

As for cinematic melee rules for eldar, variant with DoS added to base damage has won, and its quite deadly (but very random as its main fault). I allowed spending FP on automatic dodge, but forbiden healing with use of FP.

As for now collecting to much IP will close u on warrior path and make u even more away from world, i dont have any rules for CP as for now.

Equipement rules are similar with DW with much greater level and renown dependency, and ofc your temple equipement only.

You have to keep us informed on how this plays out, as much as I love my Marines, Guardsman, and Scum, it's really cool to see someone succesfully playing out 'the other side' in an RPG

Bobfather1980 said:

Unless Eldar (Exarchs?) have a Vindicare style ability to be able to dodge normally undodgable attacks.

Good luck with the game, it sounds interesting, remember that you don't need to have it balance with DW, unless you are fighting DW badguys obviously.

This is an awesome idea, I'm toying around with the idea of running an online campaign with a similar substructure.

I would want to completely supplant DW rules with ones for Eldar, however, and place it at a power level somewhere around Rogue Trader. A mixed group of Eldar, chosen by the Farseers of their craftworld to engage on a series of dangerous and distant assignments with one unmentionable goal in mind. Each Aspect Shrine (plus Rangers and probably Warlocks) would have their own specialization, as well as a set of advances based on Craftworld. I'm not sure I would design a "leadership" based class like Tac marines though, that makes the choice of Leader too... trivial.

Anyway, thanks for the inspiration! Whether I'll actually ever run the thing is a different story. Engineering is a punishing major.

boruta666 said:

borithan said:

orks are stealthy race becouse they have komandos? better: IG is one of the most stealthier race ever, certain tactical genius can hide Baneblade or titan behind few bushes...

It's kind of hard NOT to be stealthy with a high AG and unnatural agility.