Has anyone decided to write up some stats for pre-Heresy Primarchs or even post-Heresy primarchs and/or those Primarchs elevated to Daemonhood?

I recall a battle during the Heresy of Angron slaying scores of space marines with a single swing of his axe.

vastrix said:

I don't think most folks have, though there was some discussion on a thread titled "others have told me this is a bad idea" on here or DW (can't recall which) where someone had a plotline involving the PCs gaining primarch-esque powers.

The intention behind this question is pretty important though. Are you looking for an ally, adversary, or PC?

I'm thinking two out of three. I don't think Primarch pcs would be a grand idea unless of course I were considering using the Death Watch rules to run Black Crusade with returning Primarchs and Daemon Princes for a grand scale war or roleplaying the events of the Horus Heresy (which now that I type this, doesn't sound horrible).

Back to track. Finding a lost or unknown Primarch would be grand as would dealing with a Ascended Primarch while searching for a lost Primarch. Or even a Space Marine Chapter who discovers their Primarch was actually one of the damned and then tracking him down to take him to task for the betrayal.

vastrix said:

If you're using the Primarch as an ally, I personally would consider not bothering with most of the stats/rules for it. Give him whatever abilities you need to get the task at hand accomplished; though I'd advise against letting him be a 'come to the rescue and show the pcs up while they watch him be awesome'

If making him a bad guy, I'd first start with the theme you're going for, as that will determine how you build him. If you want an epic, drawn out battle consider giving him weaker attacks (just enough to hurt the PCs but not splatter them in one hit) but make the toughness, armor, and wounds through the roof, and add a lot of defensive talents. If looking for a quick and brutal combat, take the existing masters and turn them up a few notches, and play him smart .

Why would you need stats?

If you give it stats, it can be killed. And Primarchs should only be killable by plot.

Siranui said:

I second this.

The Primarchs also, as depicted in the HH books, seem to have a psychic aura of awesomeness that seems to make people somewhat awestruck around them.

According to Fluff the Rulesystem is too limited to even feature a normal Space Marine right, not to speak of a Primach. They are so Larger then life that Stats are simply not necessary .

Agreed. If you are familiar with the Vampire: The Masquerade game from White Wolf, you will recall that the clan progenitors (Antedeluvians) were an apocalyptic plot device. The vampiric end-of-the-world myth stated that if they woke up, they would destroy the world. (Yes, I am simplifying it.) Stats were not needed because they were god-like beings whose progeny, though powerful, were a pale shadow of their greatness. Sound familiar? I feel that Primarchs should be awesome legends from a lost age of Imperial greatness. There are plenty of other Uber-creatures that could be created to fill the role of "Super Badass."

I had actually forgotten the Vampire game it had been so long ago that I had played it. Thank you all for this reminder. I had plenty of villains that were supposed to be "all powerful", but once stated were slain.

My plotline doesn't involve Primarchs in the near future. The players leave their homes to head out to the Expanse to make their fortune when they are intercepted by a Blood Raven battle barge. It seems one of the players, a scholar, has discovered a legend about the Mirror of Ilsheanad. It is an ancient warp-powered device that can show the person who activates it the past. Anywhere, anywhen. The Blood Ravens inform the players to their shields because their ship's fusion drive is about ti explode. Once they do this, the Ravens teleport them aboard and whilst they watch, blow their ship to bits.

They are recruited to find this mirror for the Blood Ravens and in exchange for this they will get riches, a new ship, and a squad/company of initiate Blood Ravens led by experienced Blood Ravens (just don't tell the authorities as these new marines put them over their limit). Once the mirror is found, the players are free to do as they like so long as they answer the call for missions for new secrets from time to time which they will be rewarded handsomely.

The ship? The Vindictive. A Murder-class Cruiser that the Blood Ravens have been refitting and cleansing for a thousand years to rid it of taint, do repairs, and bring some systems up to date. The ship is instantly recognizable as the Vindictive as it was part of the 16th Expeditionary Fleet led by Warmaster Horus himself.

Bit of a hard hook at first and then plenty of expansionable from there as plenty of peeps will want that mirror. Plenty of complications to do with the ship itself and Imperial authorities. The players and the Blood Ravens place themselves at risk in their search for the Blood Raven past and holding onto a Traitor warship.

Lots of heresy there. If the players are into it, then I'd say have at it! I like the refitted cruiser idea.

ähhh??? i didn´t get it right... Your Players are a DW team and they will get command over a companie of BR and and old ship that once belonged to Horus´fleet as reward for finding an artifact for which everey Mechanicum Magos would gratful sell his soul and could reveal secrets that could crush the Ipmerium?

And the motivation to join such a heretical adventure is...????

The motivation is not getting the Emperor's Peace as a reward *evil laugh*

I'm certain if they are unwilling, then the playerscrew can be questioned by Blood Raven librarians until this info is foundanother team of suckers (that is adventurous peoples) can be found. If the players survive, they get the dubious reward of being wiped of all knowledge of the artifactdropped on Port Wander. They may even get enough cred to buy a new ship (but maybe not)

vastrix said:

Not sure where this number has come from. could be a source ive not seen?a random number out of your head? I'm sure during the 200 year great crusade Horus could have led more than one expeditionary fleet so I don't mean to criticise you, you are the GM after all, but just in case you didn't know the fleet he is leading (at least in the final few years of the crusade) is the 63rd if you were interested

Otherwise sounds like an interesting game

Oh! Maybe I was thinking of the planet designated 6316something as it was their 16th conquered planet.

Got the Old Timers Disease I'm thinking as it's been a bit since I've read the start of the Heresy series. I'm on the Thousand Sons now.

I agree with the whole not statting them, as it generally is superfluous.

But then again the Primarchs that have demonstrably fallen, have died by means that, while epic, are achievable. Rogal Dorn, Konrad Kurze, The Primarch of the White Scars (can't remember his name right now) dieddisapearednot at the hands of other Primarchs but more mortal means (but still epic).

A Kill Team of highest rankrenown, with all of the gearabilities that entails would be one of the most powerful small groups in the Imperium. A longdangerous mission culminating with a battle against a being who they believe to be a Primarch (or he claims to be one) could be quite interestingmemorable, if done right.

The thing to remember about heroes is that they achieve the seemingly impossible, that's what makes them heroes. No one thought a Primarch could turn against the Emporer. No one thought a Primarch could kill his Brother Primarch, no one thought the Emporer could be laid low, but these things happened. I say if you have a compelling story that involves a Primarchpossibly fighting him, go for it. These are the End Times after all, neither side will hold back, bring back the Primarchs that aren't definitely dead.

But remember, it could be epically bad if it's not done well. I wouldn't do this without a very serious story ideawell thought out plan.

qcipher said:

Weird, all of my and s disapeared in that post. I sense the Eye of Magnus at work!

I was doing some more thinking about this and to try and answer the original question of statting a Primarch, I'd put in a few things that Primarchs can simply do that pretty much no one and nothing else has available to them. This isn't exactly statting them, just putting some mechanics for them to use.

Touched by the Fates (and then some!) 10 Fate Points, at least. They have Fate to burn and can spend more than one in one round. Suggest up to 2 or 3 and can re-roll something more than once. Can Burn a Fate point to save their life and stay active, it's as if the attack or incident that might have killed him never happened. Only burning the last Fate Point can render them incapable of action, but they will be saved in some fashion, perhaps to return again sometime in the far future. Spending Fate points to heal will also heal Critical damage.

Improved True Grit. Take only 1/4 of Critical damage inflicted.

Perfect Attack One of their melee attacks per round cannot be blocked or parried by anyone that does not have equal or greater Fate Points than the Primarch currently has. Exception, an opponent can spend a Fate point to get one Reaction against the attack. Only those with Touched by the Fates should ever be able get this close to a Primarch.

Automatically confirm Righteous Fury against any target, Righteous Fury occurs on a damage roll of 8.9,10.

All stats Unnatural where applicable, several levels depending on Primarch. In case of a tie on a contested roll, there is no tie except with a being of similar stature (another Primarch, possibly Eldar Avatar, Greater Daemon, etc). Then determine as per normal by comparing successes and Unnatural stats.

Inhuman charisma. Aura of nobility extends out 100m x Fellowship Bonus. All humans are automatically put on most favorable (to the Primarch's needs and desires or mood) Disposition unless a Willpower roll -30 can be made, must be rerolled every time the person comes into range. Astartes can make this at -10 difficulty, it isn't that they're not impressed, they have far greater discipline and are the heirs of the Primarchs. Xenos make a Difficult Willpower roll and they will only ever be Intimidated (Primarchs were not made to Charm Xenos, they were made to destoy them). Traitor Primarchs have lost this aura for agents of the Imperium, they can only cause Fear to beings not of chaos. For creatures of chaos they can cause the most favorable reaction, or Fear depending on their whims.

Inhuman Fear. Loyal Primarchs have Fear 3, they can turn this on or off. Traitor Primarchs Fear 4, they can supress this fear for their followers, but can only suppress it down to Fear 2 for non Chaos beings.

Psionic powers. All Codex powers (where applicable), Telepathy and Divination powers and all their own Chapter powers. Can activate at Fettered (for no chance of getting Warp manifestations) as PR 10, activating is a Half action regardless of the power (unless the power is listed as Free action) and more than one can be activated in a round (as well as making an attack if they want to activate and attack). If the power can be sustained it can be sustained for a free action. Multiple powers can be maintained easily, they can freely maintain two powers, third and further powers are maintained as if the 3rd power was the 2nd power maintained, and so forth. Not all Primarchs used their Psychic powers as much as some, but all were powerfully psychic. Traitor Primarchs have access to Sorcery and Daemonic powers as well.

Size Enormous (in Armour) Hulking out of Armour.

All organs that Astartes have at 100% effectiveness, some moreso where applicable.

Just some of the things I'd figure they'd have. Each one is vastly different in other respects, and based on what is shown in the HH series it is obvious they are not created equal; some obviously fight much better than others or have strengths far in excess of their brothers. I couldn't think of a way to show their Wounds or other stats, but figure they have like an unmodifiable 90% on pretty much any roll if you need to, and if contested, simply put, they win. Trained in every Skill except perhaps ones that are knowledges that a Primarch simply couldn't know by virtue of not having been exposed to it.

How much damage they do in a hit for melee, hard to say...3d10+20 with Penetration of 10? This assumes they're using an iconic weapon that represents the Primarch's epicness. If using a different weapon (the Ravenguard Primarch killed an Iron Warrior with a hurled rock) benefits from high Penetration and damage.

But basically this is just to give the PCs a suitable taste of their epicness. I figure this should not disapoint, one of the problems with statting a god is that it tends to make them seem weak rather than impress.

qcipher said:

Yes: Epic. Which means that it should trancend being hit with a spray of heavy bolter fire where someone happened to roll RF sixteen times in a row (ie dumb luck), and be because the GM says so, which isn't dependant on stats.

As soon as something has stats it is limited and forced to comply with rules. As soon as that happens, it ceases to be epic.

cf: The worst thing ever to happen to Pendragon was the magic system. Before that evil wizards could do anything and PCs were afraid. After someone cludged a system into place they suddenly became far less intimidating to players.

If a Primarch is on-screen, it's just a waste of time to roll dice for him, and that slows the game down. We all know that Primarchs are awesome and it will kill/maim/do whatever it wants to. Making players wait for ten seconds while you roll dice to determine the inevitable is kinda pointless.

This is true. I just read the Thousand Sons and it showed Magnus the Red in his full fury. He looked fully capable of wiping the entire Space Wolves Legion (along with Custodes and Sisters of Silence) all by himself if not for the fact that he went into battle with Leman Russ and wound up losing. Early on in the book, he informs a Space Wolf Captain that he could use his powers to crush the Space Wolf ship in space from where he stood on the planet.

Horus broke a remebrancer's neck with a calm twist of his wrist in another book.

And in the Thousand Sons, pretty much anyone who stood against Leman Russ was pretty much doomed to die.

All the powers they had and the Empreror was even above that.

I think in some cases it was also hard to even fight a Primarch because you either felt total awe or terror at such a being coming at you in full fury, ready to kill you.

qcipher said:

Glad to hear that. I was reading this thinking ", What is wrong with this guy??"!

qcipher said:

qcipher said:

Glad to hear that. I was reading this thinking ", What is wrong with this guy??"!

Wow. Look what it did to my post! Looks like the Mechanicus are failing. Somebody call a Squat!

Alpha Chaos 13 said:

Famous last words.

Alex