Played a third game with my group and and a Otherworld card text came up I could not quite resolve. Could not find it mentioned using search. Here's hoping anyone could assist?

It goes something like: "Pass a speed -2 check. If you pass return to Arkham. Fail and you are lost in time and space. Either way, the gate you entered closes."

Questions:

1) Do you get the gate token as a trophy or does it "vanish"?

2) If you opt to the original location where the gate was, can you still seal the gate? If so do you do so immediately or the next turn during the Arkham Encounter phase?

3) What happens if you fail the check? Does 1) still apply? What about sealing? After all you are not at the location - unless you return to the original gate location (explored now) in the subsequent turn, THEN seal.

4) Does this mean that there is any chance of the gate re-opening on you if you have to wait a turn to seal?

Hope all that is clear? Thanks a lot!

Incidentally, we lost the game vs Nyarlothep incidentally - a perfect storm of bad luck in cards & dice rolls. A doom track that kept advancing due to a mythos card didn't help matters. Still with one gate (and one doom token) to go we might have made it but for another mythos card prohibiting gates from being sealed called "No One Can Help You Now".

Never has a card title been so appropriate for us.

I believe this one has been answered in the following way (using your convention 1., 2. etc.)

1. Yes, you get the Gate Trophy

2. If you are retuned to Arkham (pass the check), then you may seal the gate during the next A rkham Encounter Phase .

3. If you fail the check, you shal spend the next turn in Lost in Time and Space , only returning the turn thereafter...sorry, doesn't count.

4. Yes, since you shall move back to Arkham during the Other World Encounter Phase , there's the possibility (and many who profess that the game hates them will subscribe to this logic) that a Gate shall open.

"No one can help you now" is usually accompanying round of sighs from the group.

Nameless1 said:

As a general rule for similar encounters, you cannot seal gates unless the card says clearly you are allowed to do so.

So, this card instructs you to check speed. On a success, you return immediately to Arkham, on the location with the gate you entered in; as soon as you return there (we are still in Phase IV), you close the gate, take the gate marker as trophy, then you go on with Phase IV (if there are other investigators in OWs), otherwise it's Mythos phase.

If you fail the check, you go LITaS, close the gate & take the trophy, go on with Phase IV or Mythos

The Professor said:

Nope, I'm pretty sure you may not seal anything, unfortunately

If I understand you Professor, then by failing the check in (3), and being sidetracked by being Lost in Time & Space , you've also lost the opportunity to seal the gate?

Interesting. So you can't seal at ALL then? Thank you Julia for the clarification on the cards on what is allowed and not.

It seems to me then that the encounter is not as beneficial as I'd initially thought.

Thanks, Julia! This is why I regularly start my comments with "I beleive" or some such qualifier.

The Professor said:

You're welcome, Professor! ::wink::

@ Nameless: yeah, sometimes encounters returning people to Arkham aren't as benefical as they could seems. As a general rule, they're great when you draw them while still in the first Area, but in case you're in the second area... well.. and between the many, this encounter is *not* that good. If it was the last gate on the board, or it was opened on a low frequency location... yeah, it could be helpful. Otherwise...

Nameless1 said:

1.) It's my belief you get it. Many cards list exceptions if you do not get the gate (though one could certainly argue you don't get it if you're LiTaS, which I think is valid, but not how I would play it)

2.) The card says "In either case, the gate you entered closes. That means, that you must immediately spend 5 clue tokens or an Elder Sign to seal it. Once again, however, some say you can't seal while LiTaS. This I agree with, especially since you failed the check, and you technically don't have an explored token which doesn't help the case. Whenever a gate is closed, you can seal it with 5 clues or an elder sign as long. These are rare cases, even more rare since some of these methods can't be sealed because of added text saying so. But these rare cases are why, I believe, that the Elder Sign is printed with an "Any Phase" requirement! It just so happens that this takes place in phase 3 (Arkham Encounters) 95% of the time.

3.) I think you get the trophy, but cannot seal, if you fail. This is probably up to the group, but both sides have their merits. I just stick to mine

4.) If you returned and opted to seal it immediately, you're not "waiting" to seal it, because you must seal it immediately once it closes. Because the gate is closed, and there's nothing for you to "sit" on with an explored token, if you don't seal it, that means the gate is just closed, and you're back at The Witch House (or wherever). If a gate does open, if you sealed the gate, congrats! You're safe! Unless it's a gate burst, of course...If you didn't seal it, you get sucked back in. Sucks to be you

We differ on our opinions a bit, Julia, but that's mostly whether or not one can, in fact, Seal when a gate closes (and doesn't say you can't seal)...Which, to be honest, I'm not 100% sure on, but it's just me picking a side of the coin :-D

EcnoTheNeato said:

I think Avi (or Tibs? can't remember exactly) was quite clear on the fact you're not allowed to do so, but obviously you can play the way you feel comfortable with, until the new FAQs are published :-D

EcnoTheNeato said:

I've been thinking on this and even consulted the manual once more. My new reasoning is as follows:

1) You get the trophy.

2) Page 17. "If during the Arkham Encounters Phase an investigator is on a location that contains an open gate and that investigator has acquired the explored marker, he may now attempt to close the gate." So I'm guessing that even if closing WAS an option, you'd have to wait until the next encounters phase, and not immediately.

3) Page 18. "If an investigator successfully closes a gate, he may immediately spend five Clue tokens to permanently seal it." However from the text of the card it mentions nothing about the investigator being responsible for actually closing the gate. Just that the gate closes. Perhaps the gate closes on its own? And given the ambiguity of the LiTaS scenario where you are not at the gate location to seal (at least not immediately), I'm forced to concede that Julia might be right in her interpretation.

4) Further from the FAQ page 3: which states that you do NOT receive a gate explored marker if you enter the first region of an Outerworld and then becomes LiTaS.

Long story short - there seems to be a bit of ambiguity in the rules on this so I guess I'll have to house-rule it (i.e. wing it).

The only consensus there is seems to be that the player gets the gate trophy. It would be nice if this was addressed in a revision to the FAQ.

Incidentally, IS the FAQ being revised? The last version I have seems to be version 1.2 dated 2007! Surely there's been more questions since then!

Nameless1 said:

Incidentally, IS the FAQ being revised? The last version I have seems to be version 1.2 dated 2007! Surely there's been more questions since then!

There have been many more questions since then. Given just how many there have been, the FAQ is probably going to be considerably bigger than the original AH manual, when they're finally able to answer them all.

(Hmm... now that FFG is doing Print On Demand, I wonder if they'd consider adding the AH FAQ, when it comes out, to the list of POD products. Downloading a giant PDF is all very well, but a printed book would be easier to keep on hand and flick through while playing - I wouldn't mind paying a little bit to have it professionally printed and bound)

Here's the way I do it:

1. A closing gate is a closing gate: all corresponding monsters are returned to the cup.
2. If it says you close the gate, then you get the trophy. Otherwise you do not. Closing the gate may not have been deliberate: you could have accidentally caused the gate to close.
3. You're allowed to seal it if you had to do a Fight or Lore gate-closing check . (The Elder Sign is a substitute for actually doing the check, not a free pass to seal any closing gate.) The rationale is that you have to take time to gouge the elder sign. If you closed the gate by accident (see 2) then you don't get the chance to lay a seal.

So, in the cited example, you get the trophy but wouldn't be allowed to seal.

With De Vermis Mysteriis, you do not get the trophy (you did not close the gate: the incantation did), and you can't seal it (the check was for reading the tome; it was not a typical gate closing check.

You may use use an elder sign during a normal gate closing: you would have made a check, but the Elder Sign prevented you from having to do so.

Tibs said:

I might have to re-read that card again. Because I think it just says the gate closes which if I understand your reasoning means the player does NOT get the gate trophy.

I'm not clear on what you mean by "time to gouge the elder sign". Doesn't the Elder Sign immediatley close & seal a gate at the cost of sanity and stamina once you are at a gate you already explored? Manual page 17 side-box.

@Cim. Hear Hear! Then again one might hope a exhaustive revision of the rules be released with the upcoming Miskatonic Horror. Would be nice I think!

The wording on my card is, "In either event, you automatically close the gate you entered through." So you would get the trophy.

The Elder Sign replaces the normal check to close a gate. I'm saying that if you're not making a normal gate-closing check, you can't seal it, even with the Elder Sign.

Tibs said:

I get you now. Thanks for the clarification.

I have to agree with Tibs logic here. On pg 16 of the manual in the "Sealing Gates" sidebar the very first requirement listed for sealing is "Sucede at his roll to close the gate". This is referring to the Fight/Lore check done in the Arkham Encounters phase so if you don't make that check you shouldn't be able to seal unless otherwise stated.

Tibs said:

That's how I play it, too. But I beg to differ about the De Vermis Mysteriis, I don't see any reason to consider the gate closed by the incantation end not by the player. You cast the spell, so you close the gate, as with an elder sign. Why do you think it's different?

I play you get the trophy as well.

Perhaps, Tibs, you want to prevent players getting an advantage for using it as an easier means for a closing victory...?

Not specifically, but I'm saying that if your incantation causes a gate to close across town, why are you collecting it as a trophy?

In any case, to make it simple for us to employ, it has to say "you" close the gate.

Tibs said:

I can see your point, I suppose it's a matter of taste after all. I could argue that the card text says "[...] If you pass, close 1 open gate (it cannot be sealed) anywhere in Arkham (whether or not you've explored it), lose 1 Sanity, and discard De Vermiis Mysteriis". That "you" seems implied to me but it's really open to any interpretation, and see how olther players see the rules is always interesting.

However, that's how I play this kind of situation: an event generated by the direct use of an item, spell or ability by one of the investigators is treated as directly made by the investigator himself, unless differently specificated. Events generated by encounters ar not, of course unless differently specificated.

In this particular case, that "it cannot be sealed" seems quite reduntant if the gate is not closed by the investigator.

FFG seems to be less rigorous with rules redundancy than other companies.

For example, the rules for gate bursts say that a bursting gate will not cause a monster surge. Why should we think it would?

Going to ask here instead of opening another topic. Have a few more questions but I'll start with the one that started this topic.

Bought the original AH a few days agostumbled among other things on the same card described by nameless1. Here's the first problem though. My card says "In either event, YOU automatically close the gate you entered through." Sooo...

Can't say when my game was printed, but I'm guessing it might not have been lying in the shop for years, although it might be possible. I bought it less than a week ago.

Then there are two more outer world encounters that return you to Arkham (and there might be more, haven't checked all cards yet).

First one says:

The Dreamlands (Yuggoth, Other, blue)

"Pass a Lore (+0) check to fight off your desire to sleep. If you fail, you freeze in the night. You are LiTaS. If you succeed, return to Arkham."

The second one reads:

(Abyss) Yuggoth (Other, blue)

"Pass a Sneak (-1) check the creatures capture youexperiment on you. Lose half of your items, then immediately return to Arkham with no memory of the experiment".

My question is, can I attempt to close the gate in either of the events? My guess is 'maybe' for the first one'probably not' for the second one. If so, what happens if there are monsters on the gate when I exit? I did not exit on the normal movement phaseit seems I can only closeseal the gate with checks on Arkham phase, not Outer World phase. Does that mean I would have to fight monsters next movement phase?

There's another question I have, that's related to OW encounters. If I get sent to OW (I think event cards only send you to Dreamlands, from what I've seen)then say to immediately return backI get for instance an encounter that reads:

(R'lyeh) The Dreamlands (Other, yellow)

"Pass a Luck (+0) check stumble into a spider's web. Lose 2 sanitystay here next turn while struggling to get free"

How should I interpret that? Is that supposed to just mean 'delayed'?

If an Otherworld Encounter tells you that you "Return to Arkham,"does not either return you to a specific location (i.e. not where your gate is)explicitly state you do not receive an Explored token, you receive an Explored tokencan try to close the gate next turn. So the answer is "yes" for both of them, though you're correct that you won't be able to try to close the gate until your next turn since Arkham Encounters is already over.

The phrase "stay here next turn" always means you are delayed .

Thanks for that. It's beginning to make some sense now.