Gencon is the biggest North American RPG convention. And now I point you here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gencon

WARNING - SPOILER AHEAD for Imperial Armour 3

Dezmond said:

Now that is where we part company - I see them as power armoured elite soldiers, not supermen. They are far above normal human troops but not invulnerable or unbeatable, just modified humans that can be beaten and die just like their "lesser" brethren. And there is some fluff around that backs this as well .... Imperial Armour 3: Taros Campaign.

A space marine strike force (a full company with extra support from two terminator squads & two dreadnoughts) assaults a rebel governor's palace to deliver Imperial justice to the xeno-loving heretic.

Now according to the most rabid SM fans that force should be enough to subjugate any planet or even entire systems!

Actual result: they get their butts kicked!

The marines takes the palace but the governor has fled and they are struck by a heavy counter-attack of tanks, heavy infantry and aircraft. The SM commander tries to hold out but takes heavy losses, and even with Thunderhawk gunship support he still has to withdraw or risk loosing his entire force; in the process most of the gene seed cannot be recovered hampering the chapter for years to come. And the race that dished out this humiliating pounding: the Tau.

So there you have it: SMs shown not as super heroes but as an elite military force that can still be beaten by superior firepower and capable of taking tactical decisions (preserving your force to fight another day rather than pointless last stands) and I hope that FFG take this approach to their SMs in the game.

DW

I think the confusion comes from the fact that they aren't in fact superheroes but in many places they are considered superheroes by the highly uneducated populace. The unfortunate truth is that they aren't invincible, but when you are the elite you have a certain reputation to uphold.

LeBlanc13 said:

That's why I said "mostly", not "just". I'm attracted to some chapters myself (mainly Imperial Fists), but have no wish to see them published in RPG at expense of stuff that would really broaden our view of Imperium. Dark Heresy gives us an opportunity to see more of 40k than tabletop covers, and I think it's a great opportunity. I just think that Marines don't make for a great roleplaying material, and besides, how would you fill a 400 page rulebook with them? Dark Reign's supplement covers most of the fields already and you can make all the flavour stuff yourself, based on really large amounts of fluff they have.

+++++I see them as power armoured elite soldiers, not supermen.+++++

You do that and I'll do ubermarines kick endless ass with daiklaves and we'll see what sells the most.

+++++how would you fill a 400 page rulebook with them?+++++

The Great Pendragon Campaign is 425 pages of just arthurian knights.

We have armour varients and upgrades (do you want strength or speed boosting armour? Maybe IR camo system or chaff dispensers). Weapons and weapon upgrades and relics (gun-chucks, dual weilded short chainswords, nemesis force weapons). We have geneseed varients (does your chapter prioritise speed, strength, toughness or agility?). High end Librarian powers.

We have servator/cherub squires for ammo replenishment or medical care. Techmarine powers after the tech priests from Dark Heresy.

We can even have powerz fuelled by chapter specific 'Rage' stats - Space Wolves build Rage Points, Ultramarines build Honor points, others may build Guile points or Brutality points.

Loads of stuff to write about.

And, since Marines are tough enough to handle them, we can detail the badguys - alpha psykers, greater demons, heavy duty alien hardware - tanks, titans, hordes of tyranids - Marines are the boys who take on the toughest jobs, so we can talk about the coolest opponents.