Letrii said:

As sung by Garfield.

*Takes off his shoe.*

It's an easy song to stop - simply demonstrate good faith to 40k by releasing a badass Marine book.

Or rules to enable more combat heavy play.

No one should be calling Dezmund a troll or a broken record. Yes we have all heard his voice and song over and over again. But he is dedicated to what he wants and knows what he wants. So give him some credit to some degree. He has spirit and high hopes to get what he wants out of a 40KRPG.

I think he should be very pleased with Richard Littles space marine fan book, it will allow him to play what he wants. Sure it isnt official, but have you at least tried it Dez?

And at least you know your book is coming in the next few years. I have no idea if I will ever get a IG sourcebook for 40KRPG, or ever see a real commissar that isnt part of the Chaliced group, which isnt really a commissar.

And the rest of you, its okay to debate with him but dont attack him personally with the lables like troll and so forth. His name is clearly marked on each ofhis posts, dont read them if you dont like them. Dont reply if you dont like them. Dont egg him on. Just move along.

As for Rogue Trader and Deathwatch, Im perfectly happy with Dark Heresy. Though if they ever make a Emperor's Hammer of Duty and Honour about IG special forces and veterans Id be pleased as punch.

What I want to know is how the games are going to mix together. I mean is it going to be a meta plot that evolves into the next release?

Will the Harlock Legacy lead into Rogue Trader and then Rogue Trader have supplement that leads to Death Watch.

Is it all going to be in the Calixis Sector, including Deathwing? So Deathwing will deal with that special chapter, but what about the other chapters? Is this al a meta plot involving the Tyrant Star?

Have they said subsequent series will go beyond 15k xp?

Nope, they just said a different TIER of POWER

Hmm, could be interpreted several different ways.

Low combat!? Compared to WHAT? Well, I suppose if that's all you want...which must be something that resembles D&D 4e, when you get right down to it. Mine is bigger than yours, etc, etc Now THAT'S boring. Dull. And inane.

I don't know much about the game or setting yet, but the set up (from what I know SO FAR) does not look like the space marine aspect would make a very good roleplaying game. It looks like they would not have much choice or ability to move about or even incentive to do things that I think of as rpg type activities (which DH is loaded with). I'll wait to pass judgement on Deathwatch, but I am most interested in Rogue Trader. I can certainly see from reading Ravenor how well it and DH will mesh. Space marines I don't.

wolfie said:

Well, the vast magority of genre entertainment for a start - certainly including DnD, going through video games and taking a detor at Frank Miller comics.

This is 40k man - spiritual successor to 2000ad and Heavy Metal - it should be way more blood soaked and violent than any namby-pamby US DnD. People should be saying they would rather play DnD because 40k is too violent!!!!

Well, I am with you on one point. I'd rather play Stormbringer or Dragon Warriors than D&D (you notice, both British rpgs, both more atmospheric and violent). But I still don't think that is really a fair comparison, DH just has a different focus that some of us prefer. Probably more than prefer the space marines in a rpg, I'd guess. We'll just have to disagree, doesn't automatically make anybody stupid or even wrong.

Maybe part of my problem is too many real fights, so I don't find fighting entertaining in itself any more, not that I ever did really. Try to be patient, Deathwatch will be along. And I am serious about Waste World. Find a copy, I'll think you would like it.

Dezmond said:

Edited your quote to make it more in line with what you really mean to say. I've been a fan of the 40k setting probably longer than you (since the early 1990s), and Dark Heresy is thematically suited for the setting, and the content is very much 40k. The game is not perfect (and no, not because there are no space marines), but it does a **** great job of fitting the universe.

Wilfred Owen said:

So true, so true.

Space Marines are not 40k, they are PART of it.

And this game does an awesome job fitting the dark and stagnant atmosphere of 40k.

Hell yes, Tony Jaa. Although I prefer the one camera fight scene from that film.

Peacekeeper_b said:

It's not the love of Space Marines. It's the hate on everything else. You can be dedicated to what you want, without spitting on what other people enjoy. No one should be calling DH (or it's writers) a failure which he has done and continues to insinuate now. No need to defend those who don't want to be defended, he says things clearly to get a rise out of the DH fans. Which when done on the very forum of the product you bash, is the very definition of trolling. I'm sure if he's so convicted then he can take it.

Mark It Zero said:

Then why give him what he wants?

Peacekeeper_b said:

My spirit and dedication to DH as a fine RPG perhaps. Anyway, I'm one of those people who loves a good argument. I'm not saying he's wrong, he's just supporting how right he is in the wrongest of ways IMO. Space Marines are really what I pictured when I thought about a 40k RPG. DH has proven that the world has more depth than that alone but a part of me wanted power armor and huge weaponry when I first toyed with the idea of getting into a 40k roleplaying game. I must admit, a part of me was disappointed, until I actually held DH in my hands.

The comments here hardly classify as full on internet flame wars. Until he starts attacking my mother, my age, or my sex drive then there's nothing wrong with a little debate. There's nothing wrong with a heated discussion. I'm fairly certain Dez can take a little teasing, otherwise he wouldn't still be here.

Well I think we all had dissappointments in the game. Me, I hate the career system, but oh well, Ive learn to accept and adapt to it. I also think I would have liked more origin options, like Ratling, Squat and Ogryn (thank you N0-1-h3r3) and of course Commissars.

Sure we got the Chaliced blokes, but I meant real commissars LOL.

But I like DH overall, alot. I bought most of my friends a copy of the core book for christmas just so they could see what I was talking about. Being stationed overseas with most of my friends scattered to the winds it was important then when I talked to them about the game I love so much that they had some basis to talk back from LOL.

And as was mentioned before, there is a wealth of fanmade material out there that works very well. I am very pleased that my Unearthed Apocrypha article on Orks and Dark Eldar will soon be made unnecessary by the release of Creatures Anathema.

Indeed, the only reason I use the career system is that my players like to fully randomize their characters and open point buy clashes with that.

Space Marines could be interesting but for me only as background material. One of the main beefs against DH has been that the players are redshirts. Wouldn't making them Marines mean that they are even more literally redshirts? The structure of the military is much more constrictive than that of the Inquisition where the players are somewhat on their own as compared to being under direct orders for the vast majority of the time.

Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

I dont really think the characters in Dark Heresy are Red Shirts. They are agents of the Inquisition and have quite a bit of power when it comes down to it. They just are not given the almighty true Inquisitor powers we see in the comic and novels, because we all know 50% of the players out there would so abuse that power.

The characters are no less powerful or free then say the X-Files team. They still answer to a higher authority, but are a higheer authority in general. Remember how Eisenhorn could at any moment ignore, arrest, detain or even have executed anyone who interfered in his missions, but he took the more sophisticated routes.

I let the players in my games be the heroes. Sure, they aint space marines, but they are the focus of the game. The reason it takes place at all.

Rashid ad Din Sinan said:

Nah - Marines are often seen running around on their own on quests, and Priad and his boys from Brothers of the Snake run their operation like the greek heros from the illiad.

Assume a chapter works more like The Knights of the Round Table, in which a mission comes up at a feast and all the knights/marines boast about how they are most appropriate to do the deed then the chapter master/king selects the PCs to do it.

--

So, in summation, 40k should be a welcoming place for all those looking to revel in adolescent power fantasies. Dark Heresy present some pretty poor power fantasies, and therefore fails as a 40k product.

I've been working on a solgan to get things moving in the correct direction:-

This is Warhammer - if you think DnD is a power fantasy, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Just ignore people like Dez, I do. (At least I'm honest in that small line of thinking. *sigh*)

The one thing great about DH is that it's a large place to explore and do more then one single thing. We can all leave the Dez-alike players behind in thier littte world, while we go off and see the rest of the galaxy in all it's....darkness.

As the old saying goes: opinions are like a-holes, everyones got one. Best to go with what you know and ignore the rubbish, much like our characters would do in this setting.

Dezmond said:

You're under the assumption that Dark Heresy should be a game indulging 'power fantasies', which is, I have to say, a rather superficial way to play a roleplaying game. Why don't you just play warhammer 40k?

Dezmond said:

Actually that is a perfect example of the command structure I was talking about. Chapter/king 'selects' the party to do something. Insubordination is not tolerated. The difference is that Inquisitorial Acolytes have more varied 'dayjobs'.

Wilfred Owen said:

Why don't you just play warhammer 40k?

Forgive me for thinking a 40k roleplaying game should have something to do with 40k.

--

The king isn't ordering anyone - he is giving them the oppertunity to go on adventures and earn glory and honor. You don't wanna go you don't put your name forward.

Then all he expects is to hear the tale of the deeds when the heros return.

Dezmond said:

Wilfred Owen said:

Why don't you just play warhammer 40k?

Forgive me for thinking a 40k roleplaying game should have something to do with 40k.

Sorry, but the 40K RPG is based on something to do with 40K. I do recall there are two Inquisition armies. I also seem to recall that 40K just isnt the TT of plastic space marines and IG and nids. It is a vast industry of interconnected media and games, from video to TT to RPGs to novel and comics and hopefully one day soon a movie.

And since any 40KRPG would have to be based more on the fluff then on the TT game, it is more likely to appeal to readers of the novels and the comics then just players of the TT.

And when you think of it that way then you have to realize what the Black Libraries biggest selling books are. Thats right, The Gaunts Ghosts and Commissar Cain series of books. Why are they biggers sellers? Because they are more interested then just "Were knights, were knights in space, we roam around the cosmo defending the human race!" Space Marine theme stuck in your head.

I guarantee you that if they went the way of Spae Marines the RPG from the start the game would have strong sales at the beginning and probably a few sourcebooks out pretty **** fast. But then the game would have stopped. The interest would have faded and the game would pass into RPGs of the past. And we would see fan supplements to play IG, RT, Inquisition and other things pop up in a larger quantity then what SM stuff has popped up in this Dark Heresy first world.

And why? Cause people would get bored with the game. Its the main fault with Chaosium's BRP line. It releases all these big fantasy and action based based like Super World, Stormbringer and so forth, but the faulter. And yet the lower tiered investigation style game of Call of Cthulhu has had a steady release rate for going on 30 years.

Most Role Players who are interested in Dark Heresy and 40K are more interested in the setting then just the Bolter and Power Armour. They are interested in the fact that the background, expanded beyond space marines, is perhaps the most vibrant, open ended and amazing sci-fi setting of all time and has a worth of RP experience that just doesnt work for a SM theme game.

Sure, you can run around and play space marines as camelot knights, but the game would get dull over several sessions as all it becomes then is D&D in space.

Thank you Peacekeeper for living up to your name. I could never reply as diplomatically like that most times.