N0-1_H3r3 said:

Sure, sure, a veritable small band of free thinkers surrounded by an endless sea of Marine Fanboys.

Dezmond said:

Well the Marine Fanboys must not have the internet, cause you are the only one Ive seen on any of the DH forums in the past year.

Why do you feel so threatened then?

Dezmond said:

Yup. Ignore buttons would be nice.

Thing is Deathwatch is what...1...2 years away.

Too busy having fun with Dark Heresy right now, and am looking forward to the Rogue Trader.

Deathwatch is two years away and right now conjures up images of "bug-Hunts" and that computer/board game where Terminators stomped around sweeping space hulks of Genestealer infestation.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that Death Watch wasn't just about the Ubermensch of the Imperium, but also the non-marines who assist the marine (maintaining his tech...'counsel'...monitoring the physique...etc.), so it won't just be about stomping some xeno into the asphalt.

Right now it conjures up a small unit tactical combat sim, until FFG releases more teasers to wet my appetite.

****, apologies if my last post is somewhat confusing just read it...

Bugger!

The point I was trying to get across was until closer to release date won't know what the real angle is for Death Watch, other than it will focus on the Imperium's finest fighting force.

+++++Thing is Deathwatch is what...1...2 years away.+++++

Only if they continue wasting time on NotMarines.

+++++the non-marines who assist the marine (maintaining his tech...'counsel'...monitoring the physique...etc.)+++++

What poor bastard gets stuck playing that?

Lemme guess, Mr. Marine-fanboy. When you play space marines on the tabletop you use alot of Terminators and other "uber-cool" things, right?

Well the idea of ROLLPLAYING is that its not POWERGAMING. The idea behind Dark Heresy isnt how amazingly bad-ass your character is in close combat? The idea behind it is adopting a personality and persona that is different from your own. So that for a few hours a week (or however long you play) you can not be a Mr. Marine-fanboy-GW toolbag, but insted be something different. Combat is there so its not like your playing sherlock holms for five hours, but its not the basis of the game. The basis is investigation. What makes it fun is that you are not immortal, but in-fact, very mortal. That your actions CAN get you killed. Being a space marine defies all of that. A space marine cannot go undercover, nor can he get killed easily by underhive scum/cultists/ ect. The idea isnt to be on the warfront of the 40k universe (which is what everyone knows best about the game), but insted to be behind the scenes, rooting out corruption from within.

Do we understand this?

Ira said:

Well why the hell not? Fear of selling books or something?

I don't have anything against Space Marines, as long as they don't defy their own fluff.

Even in the terribly Mary Suish 5e Codex it says openly, that a Marine can die to a shuriken catapult, and many actually do during the Battle of Sepulchre. Yet in DH a shuriken catapult does no damage to Sargeant Agamorr. Hell, he has a big chance of doing no damage if he tries to commit suicide by shooting himself with his bolt pistol.

Don't even get me started at regular Ork Boyz (S40) being able to rip Marines apart with their bare hands, as stated by Imperial officials in 3e Ork Codex.

Idaan said:

Important thing to remember here - Agamorr is hard by Marine standards, being stronger, tougher, better-equipped and better-armoured (consider his armour to be Artificier armour, rather than simply power armour). He is, afterall, a Deathwatch Veteran with decades of combat experience. Imagine an 'average' Space Marine to be closer to TB6, AV8 and 20 wounds (thus, a single Shuriken Catapult is robbing the Marine of 1d10-4 wounds per hit).

Then consider TS Luikart's volley fire rules , designed with Agamorr and his ilk in mind (remembering that TS Luikart wrote Agamorr's stats as well). In short, while a lone Guardian with a Shuriken Catapult will invariably (and rightfully) struggle against Space Marines... multiple Guardians will fare much better. A standard squad of Guardians (10 Eldar, BS 35, +20 for Autofire, assume Normal Range, +10 for Hulking targets = 65% chance to hit) against a Tactical Demi-squad deals 1d10+11 R Damage, Pen 6 per hit using the Volley Fire rules, with every degree of success hitting an additional target. After deductions for toughness bonus and armour, that's 1d10+3 wounds removed there and then to every Astartes hit.

2-4 rounds of shooting like that (in what is a rather stale and unlikely match-up), and the Marines get pulled down by volume of fire...

Idaan said:

Equally important is that "regular Ork Boyz" could mean a lot of things - Orks do, afterall, get stronger and tougher in violent surroundings, and Orks in a warzone where Space Marines have been deployed will often be much, much bigger and nastier than those found ransacking a backwater agri-world.

Ripping an armoured marine apart with their bare hands is nigh-impossible anyway - anyone in power armour is fundamentally immune to the unarmed attacks (and even natural weapons) of most creatures, by merit of such attacks being primitive and thus counting the armour as being AV16... and the kind of creatures that can deal that much damage unarmed are normally the kind of creatures able to heatbutt tanks apart.

As it is, I'm going to chalk that one down to hyperbole and the inherent bias in much of the material in any Codex. No armybook will ever say anything bad about the army it exists to present, and will invariably play them up to hammer the point home... something that was particularly bad in the otherwise background-less early 3rd edition Codices.

Dull dull dull.

I think it would be far more interesting to do Marines Unleashed. The unstoppable death machines of fanboys dreams. Is there only one of you - well, you only have one tyranid invasion.

Chainklaves, double ended chainswords (darth maul style), chainchucks, bolt-gunchucks, force-daiklaves and +18 pauldrons of hate - 10 eldar are no proplem - ten squadron of eldar grav armour are no problem. Marines as the ultimate assault force, storming the strongest positions and taking out the hardest demons.

The ultimate sanction - when squadrons of gunships or taking off and nuking the site from orbit just arn't enough, it is time to call for the PCs!

You know people'd love it.

Dezmond said:

I must now retract my opinion that Space Marines should be used with restraint.

Imagine one marine versus 5 Carnafexes, sound easy right? But then, they use their bio-tentacles to combine into a... GIGAFEX! Brother Asskickus grimaces, his Nemisis Force Lascannon Crackling with the power of the warp, his ten Digipsycannons ready to be unleashed, his Liquid Metal Terminator armor changing all kinds of shapes just for the hell of it, and his ace-in-the-hole: the mighty psy-power Instakill! This is the battle that will decide the fate of the galaxy... no. THE UNIVERSE!

Power gamers of the world unite!

Y'know... I've been a role-player now for... oh... 21 years (jeez, is it that long? *shudders*), and I've been a GM/DM/Referee/what-ever-you-wish-to-call-it for about 15 of those.

I originally picked up my first copy of White Dwarf waaaaaaaay back when the first edition of Blood Bowl was out and over my time have played WHFBUndad, Chaos, & High Elves), WH40k (Space Wolves & Tyranids), Blood Bowl, Space Hulk, Necromunda, Mordheim, Space Fleet, Man-O-War, Space Crusade, and all other manner of money-eating, life-wasting games that the mighty GW churned out...

I'm not a power-gamer by any means, and often my favourite characters to play are the weaker ones who need to think before getting into a fight. Hell, my favourite RPG is CoC and the amount of times I got ripped to pieces in that game doesn't bear mentioning.

And yet, I am really looking forward to bringing my first Space Marine NPC into our campaign, and even more looking forward to having my players actually PLAY them. Death Watch is the game I'm waiting for, and I'm not ashamed to admit it. Shame it's so very far away...

Each to his own.

P.S. Though I AM ashamed to share SOME of the views of Dezmond.... Forgive me, Mighty Emperor of Mankind!

Action_Carl said:

Awesome.

See? Isn't that more fun than beating yourself with knotted ropes and trying to feel good about the self denial?

Give in to your munchiness, and togeather we shall rule the galaxy as forum poster and forum poster!

Space Monkey: Hi...

Yeah, I can recall playing WH40K/Rogue Trader (Harlequins/Chaos Renegade), WFRP 1e, Fury of Dracula, Curse of the Mummy's Tomb, Adeptus Titanicus and Dungeonquest. I even recall participating in an improvised WH40k RP session way back in the early 90s...

Nostalgia eh...

Death Watch should be worth the wait, going by the amount of work put in thus far into Dark Heresy, which I thought was going to go the same route as the Cyberpunk RPG (I waited nearly a decade for Cyberpunk V3.0 to turn up...to be disappointed). Would like to see how the Adeptus Astartes are handled, having played around with the rules compiled by The Patriot (the GM ran a flashback sequence during the Horus Heresy involving a team of scouts from various chapters thrown together amidst the onslaught).

First though...Rogue Trader.

Rictus said:

But why? Everyone wants the **** Marines and we know it. Why persist with second best?

Dezmond said:

Everyone ? I couldn't care less if Space Marines were in it. I'm happy to wait for Deathwatch as I'd rather have Rogue Trader.

Makes me for one happy the 'dull' Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader are coming first. I tried a game called Waste World a while back, sort of like 40k, which was mostly kill slay demolish with big guns and ridiculous melee weapons and was bored silly with it. Unless there is a unique twist I likely will be with Death Watch too. Different strokes.

Cant quite see the point in arguing about this..

In my opinion... to make a WH40k based RPG without including space marines as PCs is to make WHFRP without witch hunters.

I mean come on, what is the first thing that pops into mind when you say WH40k? Yeah, a blood angel marine. Besides, its three totally different experiences, I much prefer "low fantasy" (or science fantasy in this case!), but sometimes its fun to blow off steam by playing a high-powered campaign as well, and some people prefer high-powered campaigns so...

However, I insist that I should be able as previously mentioned, to spit acid as well as gain the memories of a creature whose flesh I eat.

Vrashk said:

Imperial Guardsmen and Commissars.

Vrashk said:

Technogothic imagery or Tyranids.

Divine Army of Lastrati burning 14 billion people in concentration camps and crematoria.

Gothic Cathedrals of Terra, each 2 miles tall.

50-meter torpedoes being hauled manually into the launchtubes by thousands of ratings.

In fact Space Marines are my least favorite aspect of 40K. (other then the Tau, too **** Anime). If I had my way and if the Space Marines where no so integrated into the background and fluff, they would go the way of the Squats.