LaughingTree said:

LOL, yeah I must have. I haven't re-read any of the books except the first in a long time but them being gay never even crossed my mind.

RE: Loras/Renly - I didn't think GRRM was subtle at all about their sexual preferences (well, it's possible Renly goes both ways). I had no problem with the scene at all - helps set up future events well/understand where Renly sits in the line of succession. If I was upset about anything - it was portraying Renly as kind of wimpy/not a fighting type. I think he was more of a 'manly man' who liked 'manly men'.

The Loras and Renly scene seems to be a hot topic with people. I actually thought it was a very nice scene that will better explain things in the 2nd book. I would have to agree with LOB that I always pictured Renly as a copy of Robert at a younger age, just possibly more attractive. I never pictured Renly has a wimp. I also think the actor they got for Loras did a really good job.

They changed Renly's character and made him more wimpy than he is. He is more like Robert at a young age as described in the books.

There is a good summary of the hints in the first 4 books as to Renly and Loras here: www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/lorasrenly.html and Martin has confirmed it in interviews.

Renly knew how to joust and was a participant in the Hand's Tourney losing to the Hound ( who also did not participate in the HBO version) so it's hard to believe he would be ill at the sight of blood. On the other hand the way people act around their lovers in private is not the same as their public face, so we shall see how it plays out.

Good points on Renly (~and on people's lack of Gaydar)...that might be part of my issue, other than the fact that it is just alluded to in the books. He just seemed more Kingly in the books. And not as scheming (especially with his KoF).

The tough part is I really liked the character and casting until this last episode *shrug* not that he had much to do in the first few.

On the KoF they casted it fine I guess - he certainly looked good in the awesome armor...but I guess in my imagination he was more handsome than pretty. And it is hard to imagine (while on the subject of pretty guys) Lancel as a younger Jaime.

I find it very odd and creepy how they showcased Lysa Arryn and Robert Arryn. Just... creepy. Also, did anybody else notice the floors in the cells that held Tyrion weren't angled to give the feeling they're about to roll off the edge while sleeping when they turn over? Or am I the only one who envisioned them to be like that...

In the middle of watching the new episode. Renly and Loras Tyrell seem somewhat.... gayer.... than I recall them being in the book...

Rogue Cypher said:

The sky cells were angeled, but the book alludes to it being slight, something that could easily be missed/not conveyed by the visuals.

Yes, Lysa and Robert (Robin in the show) was creppy. And the look on Cat's face, like "By the Seven, my sister is nuts, what have I done coming here?" was priceless. It was sad not to see the Blackfish, but at least GRRM let this be known months ago (just too many characters to keep track of).

We also never saw anything at the Wall or in the East. And my wife, who just re-read Game of Thrones, didn't realize before that it was Illyrio with Varys in the catacombs with the dragons (another friend didn't realize it was either of them before).

I also expected Loras to be more buff...um, muscular. ***SPOILERS*** And I don't think we're really going to see the Sansa/Hound relationship develop, unless something major happens between them in the next few episodes. Which could hurt the Hound/Arya relationship in later books

JerusalemJones said:

Ack no Blackfish this season?!? Dang, I was really looking forward to him.

Karazax said:

I'm inclined to call BS on that. A writer who is so explicit about so much is now subtly hinting at something like this? Explicit about incest, but wink and a nod about homosexuality? I'm not buying it. I think the HBO writers wanted major gay characters and got them.*

*not that there's anything wrong with that

Karazax said:

True, but if a character's private persona is markedly different from his public one, it seems like that should come from the text. Otherwise, you can just assume everyone is blowing each other* behind closed doors in scenes not captured by the book.

*not that there's anything wrong with that

Rogue Cypher said:

actually the camera is angled to give the effect that the floors are too. Ever so slightly.

JackT said:

Call BS all you want, but HBO did not add this. It is right from the books. Its pretty obvious if you read the books.

Toqtamish said:

Actually, its pretty obvious that it is not obvious, since I read the books and everything.

Now, having said that, you can postulate that I am an idiot (a not inconceivable possibility).

It remains, however, that Martin does not shy away from making things obvious. For example, the aformentioned inscestuous relationship between Jaime and Cersei. Find me a website documenting "hints" from the book that this is so. There is none, because, to use your words, it is "obvious."

Incest, ****, torture, cannibalism, castration, slavery, lesbianism; all are depicted with the camera rolling in Martin's text.

Yet, it turns out, Renly was really a whimpy ponce getting BJs from the Knight of Flowers, but Martin only hints about this? Seems like exactly the sort of thing he would devote pages to were it really part of the story.

So, yes, HBO did add this.

Ok, how about we put it this way? Other major characters in the series reference it constantly. They might be wrong. It could be a misconception and most of the realm only thinks that Renly and Loras are homosexual. We aren't specifically shown them together in a sex scene, though we are frequently shown that the rest of the realm thinks that they are. HBO chose to take the other characters' assumptions as concrete fact. In this case, I have no problem with that.

Of course, I could still argue that we still didn't really see them, I suppose.

~Just shirtless Loras shaving shirtless Renly.

Kennon said:

More of a Spartacus bathtub scene type situation. Also, for a gay athlete, Loras could have been a little more ripped.

Toqtamish said:

Call BS all you want, but HBO did not add this. It is right from the books. Its pretty obvious if you read the books.

Actually, its pretty obvious that it is not obvious, since I read the books and everything.

Now, having said that, you can postulate that I am an idiot (a not inconceivable possibility).

It remains, however, that Martin does not shy away from making things obvious. For example, the aformentioned inscestuous relationship between Jaime and Cersei. Find me a website documenting "hints" from the book that this is so. There is none, because, to use your words, it is "obvious."

Incest, ****, torture, cannibalism, castration, slavery, lesbianism; all are depicted with the camera rolling in Martin's text.

Yet, it turns out, Renly was really a whimpy ponce getting BJs from the Knight of Flowers, but Martin only hints about this? Seems like exactly the sort of thing he would devote pages to were it really part of the story.

So, yes, HBO did add this.

Or how about this the fact that Martin has said in interviews, Yes they are homosexual. And yes it was obvious in the books.

"And speaking of Renly and Loras...

George specifically stated "Yes, I did intend those characters to be gay." Not that we didn't already know that of course, but I don't believe it's ever been actually confirmed before."

www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/To_Be_Continued_Chicago_IL_May_6_8/

I just finished re-reading the first book and it is not even slightly hinted at that Renly is gay (to say he's gay because he has a love of fine clothes would be an incredible reach and borderline stupid). Ser Loris is called the Knight of Flowers, but that's about it for the hints that he's gay as well although one is more inclined to believe it. Regardless of GRRM's interview stating that Renly and Loris had a relationship, it serves no purpose to reveal it at this point in the series.

The hints are not in the first book. They are in the books afterwards when Renly declares himself King. As for in the series, TV series are a different beast than books and the books could not be everywhere as each chapter was from one persons point of view. The scenes they added this episode were quite believable as stuff we just did not see in the books.

Yeah, it becomes very obvious later on. Or at least I think this is obvious - "Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I'll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found." (From Storm of Swords)

And it does serve a purpose in the show. If you're going to be true to the characters, technically, something like that should be done sooner rather than later. Otherwise it comes across as a shock and kind of cheap later. Also, it sets up the idea that Renly wants to be King, something my wife who is re-reading the series, says she felt came out of nowhere in the books.

I realize a lot got changed in the last episode. Lots of new scenes, but in some ways those new scenes serve a richer and more efficient way to present the story than how Martin handles them. (In some cases, worse, as Ktom has mentioned about the lack of subtlety at times.) I felt like there was way more gratuitous content in this episode than any other, unfortunately.

But it also had some of the best scenes so far, like those with Arya, the Clansmen attack, the Eyrie, Littlefinger and Varys talking, Cersei and Robert's scene, and the awesome scene with Jaime and Ned.

This show isn't perfect, but one of its strengths is the way it's setting up some of the things to come with very nice foreshadowing from time to time. You can tell that the creators are doing their best to stay faithful to the World Martin created first and foremost as they struggle with the limitations of their own medium. Sometimes characters have to be established sooner or with a slightly different tint because of it, but overall, it's working, especially in this episode.

Jack T, you may not have caught they were gay, but Martin confirmed this YEARS ago. My first read of A Game of Thrones, I didn't see it, but each book after pretty much made it clear there was a relationship between them. Re-reading A Game of Thrones it is actually hinted at. Martin conceived of the characters this way, this is a fact that has nothing to do with HBO.

And regarding Martin being blatant, there are dozens and dozens of subtle things he introduces and never states outright, and some which are never confirmed explicitly and some that are later.

Re-read the books. You'll find the references. They will practically leap off the page at you now that you know.

The reason it isn't more blatant in the books in comparison to other things like incest is because neither Loras nor Renly are point of view characters, and none of the point of view characters witnessed them directly sexually engaged. In comparison Bran sees Cersei and Jaime together, and both of them are point of view characters later. The books certainly are not as obvious as the show makes it. They didn't make them being gay just for the sake of HBO being HBO, but you can argue that they added them having a love scene rather than being more subtle about it for that reason.

Penfold said:

You are more correct than you know. Now I think ALL the characters are gay.

Kennon said:

Right. Loras, being a good squire, was simply following up the chest shaving with a pedicure, or maybe lacing up his lords boots.