Hello. I have been thinking about picking up the WFRP game. Its lethality and "dark fantasy" flavor really appeal to me. As much as I love 4e D&D, it would be nice to have another game I could play in which combat is a fallback option, not a first choice (sometimes it is nice to run different types of games). However, I worry about whether the rest of its mechanics will appeal to me.

Obviously, I really like non-combat encounter mechanics. A like a game to be about more than just combat. I am also really big on class balance in the games that I play. This is one of the reasons 4e appeals to me. I have been burnt out of games in which one character dominates the field and the rest act like sidekicks. I want every class to be able to contribute to the game meaningfully, and in a way in which other classes can not. I don't like randomized character generation. I like it when the players can choose who they want to play, not get forced into playing a character based on random dice rolls.

With that in mind, would WFRP appeal to my tastes?

Well, combat is certainly more lethal. It's not a death sentence, but at the very least, in my experience, no matter how in control the players are in a combat situation, they never completely feel at ease.

I've had fun encouraging players to find ways to overcome or bypass a situation without having to resort to charging in. This was actually quite tricky initially - new players just charged in, and were very alien to the idea of solving things outside of combat. But, the lethality (once the players have learned their lesson) encourages players to think of alternatives to combat.

The fact that a very large portion of the careers are not specifically combat orientated and are often more socially orientated builds on this. A player party of peasants, diplomats, and menial workers are more motivated to find non-violent ways out of situations, if they roleplay reasonably well.

The dice themselves also allow for interesting interactions and flowing results which are great when used with player creativity.

As for "class balance"... well, that's a tricky one. As stated above, many classes aren't combat orientated, and thus won't be able to contribute as much in combat as a combat career. They may, however, be much more useful in social situations.

There are some combat classes which are quite monstrously effective - but I'm not experienced enough to really delve into that, I'll just hope the others here will fill you in

Well about the balance between classes (or careers rather) the careers get the same amount of points to spend when creating characters but as Kharrak said some are combat oriented others are not.

An envoy will probably never be as effective in combat as a soldier, but on the other hand the envoy will "dominate" the field when getting into social situations. In my group the High Elf Envoy is very much a support character in combat by shooting some arrows and hitting sometimes, giving small bonuses to the group etc. The dwarf soldier on the other hand hit almost all the attacks and do much more damage, while at the same time beeing able to sustain more damage. In a social situation though, it's reversed. The Envoy will have a higher success rate and the successes will be far better.

As it stands the game is more about telling a good story with interesting (and not neccesarely heroic) characters and not keeping all the careers super-balanced. Also, balance is very hard to judge in WFRP since the pesant who is not very good in combat, neither especially skilled socially still can be very useful to the group, the same goes for a lot of careers.

There's a randomized way for choosing careers, but I let my players choose race and career. The rest of the character creation process is based on spending creation points, so there is no randomness to the resulting career.

So I really don't know what to tell you, I love the game and have great fun with it but if you really hate "unbalanced" careers maybe this won't be your cup of tea. On the other hand I find that all careers can contribute in a good and meaningful way, allthough in combat one might be a sidekick (or take a less prominent role as support) but in the next instant that very character may shine in another situation.

I had a player who constantly compared the damage output of his character with everyone else and was disappointed every time he realized that some of the other players did more damage. But well, he on the other hand had actions and skills that the others lacked, so he could "shine" and take point in many other situations, and I think he stared himself blind on damage and got bored since he never reached the damage output the slayer and soldier did.

Huh. I don't know. I still can't tell if it would be my cup of tea or not. Let me ask, the peasant, how does he contribute meaningfully if he is not good at either combat situations or social situations?

Theoretically, I might be ok with a game in which not all professions contribute equally to the same type of task, but all professions can contribute meaningfully overall. My only problem with that set up is that very often it limits a particular character's ability to contribute to DM/GM fiat. If you are playing a character that is only great at dealing with social situations, and you never seem to end up facing any, that character becomes sort of useless. Does this game end up playing out that way in practice (perhaps not with social situations specifically, but rather with any type of character often feeling like they are sitting around waiting for their chance to shine, with that moment never coming)?

Regarding combat, Guarded Position is a basic action all characters have and that is super useful in combat. Essentially, it gives a defensive bonus to all other allies in the same engagement. In a chaotic melee, it is essential to have people "watching your back" by using guarded position.

So because of that, combat lite characters that want to contribute will often be in the thick of it, creating very nice roleplaying situations !

Secondly, WFRP provides many (over 50 I think up to now) careers to create very colourful and diverse characters. A character will become useless only if the player has no imagination. Even in combat. Creative use of the Perform a Stunt basic action card can make any character a factor in combat (ie.: throw furniture in the legs of assailants, create a diversion by singing All Hail Sigmar, push a barrel in doorway and then beak it open on the enemies' side to send them awash with beer, use superior coordination to always keep the heavy oaken table between you and the marauder, jump out the window and steal the watchman's horse, etc... etc...).

Regarding the Commoner, he has a lot of folk knowledge, is very resistant and tough and basically can be of real use all sorts of ways, give him trained guard dogs and there you go for combat !

Really, WFRP demands that you use your imagination more than D&D for example, but the system rewards you afterwards, and while it does require GM fiat, the rules as written give the GM the mission and tools to do just that in an interesting way.

Well first, "professions" don't define you as enduringly in warhammer as in D&D. For example at 22 sessions I have a Ratcatcher now Mystic, Scout now Waywatcher, Apprentice now Acolyte with bit of Apothecary, Soldier now Initiate of Sigmar and at 32 will likely have at least one more of each those etc.

A Commoner with a Winning Smile etc. and good fellowship will be riding in a carriage in no time (and running from a bounty hunter in only slightly longer time it being the sort of world it is). The "action card" and "talent" system mean that though career choice definitely matters, it defines you much less.

Even for combat, I prefer warhammer. I find the range of actions more interesting. For example in D&D if you go on total defense all you're doing is changing odds of getting hit "snooze". In Warhammer if you use Guarded Position you're rolling and seeing how well you do and you're also helping protect your buddies from being hit. The Apprentice/Acolyte (wizard) just took Improved Guarded Position and is going to be very popular to hang around in fights for that. On the combat side that's part of what I like about warhammer, there's much less boring old, "I swing at him" sort of stuff. The criticals system is fast and simple but also makes fights "matter". Sure you know you can take down 3 gor beastmen - but you might still be limping tomorrow.

On the non-combat side, there's Perform a Stunt, that's page 42 of the DMG (the one with "hey you can really do anything") put on a card for players to remind them what they can do. The game has lots of non-combat actions and I find the skills for social stuff good in use as long as players remember/GM reminds accepts that you can use far more than simply Charm (be persuasive).

In my last session, the heroes stalled a mob long enough for soldiers to show up and stop them burning down a mansion using the skills of Charm (smooth talking), Leadership, Guile, Intimidation, Education and last but certaily not least the "Fetch" action (to have a ratcatcher's dog jump up and grab the hat off the witch hunter's head, running around with it distracting him and turning mob's mood lighter), along the way triggering a Witch Hunger and Flagellant showing up to make situation worse and give them a recurring foe.

This all worked much simpler/more oganically than a D&D4e "skill challenge" - many of the same concepts really but put together in a much more fun and less scripted way.

That said, it's very much "what you do at your table" and yes I am a "burned out on D&D, warhammer fanboy" so take all I say with a grain of salt.

Neat. Well, thank you very much everyone. I doubt I will ever get burned out of D&D 4e (I love the game), but you have all piqued my interest enough that I think I will invest in WFRPG.

Cyber-Dave said:

It is definitly worth investing in I can tell you that. I just wanted to prepare you for that there's a lot of careers that might not seem "fun" at first sight but can be very fun and rewarding to play if the players are up for it. As has been pointed out the career defines the character less and everyone will have a set of skills that come in handy in the course of an adventure, just make sure to "spotlight" other things than combat too, don't gloss over the social stuff and such things since some careers might get an oppurtunity to shine then.

Also if you'r playing with the D&D-group, make sure they know what to expect and I'm sure you'll have a great time of it.

Good luck with the gaming!