MILLANDSON said:

That is, of course, unless you happen to have a launch bay or two with a good supply of Aeronautica (2x Jovian launch bays gives 4 squadrons, counting landing craft as the aeronautica equivalent of assault boats, gives 24 craft per "squadron", for a total of 96 landing craft... even assuming they're fairly small, only carrying 30 men each, that's still enough craft to land nearly three thousand men in every wave) to carry them to the surface. It also gives a pile of extra achievement points towards the same Military objective those troops are probably being used for...

Hrmm so one transport per 5 space, +4 per Cargo & passenger component +3 squadronds per bay strength.

Take a jericho class pilgrim ship, put in two barracks, and add a hold bay. Maybe throw in a pod bay if there's space. Think you end up with uhmm...math.....17 transports plus three squadrons of assault boats, or miscellaneous aeronautica. That should let you get boots on the ground fairly quckly.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

That's not a choice for anything smaller than a Light Cruiser though, but then if you intend to do a proper planetary invasion, you'd need something of that size to carry the people needed to do a planetary invasion

Going by the various bits of fluff, both in the official books and the black library stuff the guard makes use of transports ranging the size of a saving private Ryan style 'assault boat' to kilometer long mega haulers built to set down and unload super heavy vehicles. Though I think that the average ground to dirt transport would be something capable of carrying a company and its gear from orbit to a landing site, then returning within a few hours.

Transports such as that are mentioned in the Ciaphas Cain novels (Ref. Caves of Ice), and the novel Gunheads (tank transports). the LCV style assault boats are mentioned in the Armour of Contempt, one of the Gaunt's Ghost novels. Other landers for the big stuff are scattered in various sources, many of them related to Epic 40k rather than the current tabletop game.

Also it seems most troop transports are almost entirely given over to decks for moving regiments that are segregated from one another. Each 'regiment' gets its own area complete with training facilities, quarters, mess hall, and armory. Not many are mentioned as being of much use in a space battle.

Lynata said:

You are forgetting space again.

One point of space on a Lunar class cruiser is 2 square kilometres which are 33 metres high minus the space needed for walls and piping etc.

Yes its really hard to fit 4 special Aquila Landers onto the 2 square kilometres used by the Luxury quarters which are 50 metres high to incorporate the hunting grounds with a real forest. Even if you incorporate the fact that the plasma drive is bigger than the space points indicate (space points not equaling actual space because of balancing reasons urgs), you should still end up with enough space to fit in a small hangar that has a few special Aquilas.

FFG is writing rules with pure gameplay in mind and constantly ignores the HUGE scale 40k gives its own games. I mean they are trying to tell us that ships are huge, and then are forgetting said stuff themselves.

Also the 40k fluff has enough examples of moving troops easily. Battlefleet Koronus does spaceship fights very well and gives us many cool components to use.

The new part depicting ground warfare has fallen short by a few kilometres. The rules to aquire said troops are good, but only mention the need for a special troop ship to transport said troops.

If you calculate around with numbers, a single Lunar can easily count as a acceptable troop transport. You wont be joining the 3rd Armageddon war, but then again you are only in the Expanse. Getting a few tens of thousand of troops on board should hardly be a problem. Only problem we are missing out on the one component that allows us to fit an actual troop carrier fitting a few hundred soldiers aboard.

In BFK hovering somewhere inside the assault craft rules is a sentence saying something to the effect of "A rogue trader's ship has enough room for 1 craft for every 5 points of hull integrity." They reason that this space results from the fact that every void ship needs a bay for aircraft and spacecrafts to land.

Do you guys think Aquila landers and Arvus lighters count as Aeronautica? Or just stuff like Thunderbolts and Lightnings? In this case I'm sortof thinking of the relative size of the Forge World models.

Yes. In my game, Aquila and Arvus shuttles are small, and only occupy 1/2 space.

That said, I did have to adjust their carrying capacity a bit. Per the fluff in BFK, shuttles are about the size of a jumbo jet, and even a 1500 meter Sword can only carry 8. That implies an individual shuttle can carry more than 10 people at a time.

Cheers,

- V.

Vandegraffe said:

Hm, could you point me towards that fluff in BFK, in terms of page numbers?

Vandegraffe said:

Aeronautica are craft that only really fly in atmosphere, but can be launched from orbit (the craft drop down into the atmosphere and then level off). Aquila and Arvus shuttles are not aeronautica due to this (they are fully functional space-capable craft).

AkumaKorgar said:

Drat, can't find the reference I was thinking of now.

I did, however, find something else of interest: A Shark class assault boat is 55 meters in length. (BFK p. 140) and support craft take up the same room as assault boats (BFK, p. 11 boxed text). By way of comparison, a classic Boeing 737 jetliner has a length of 31 to 37 meters, and a Boeing 777-200 is a shade under 64 meters long. Since Imperial technology tends to be bulky and boxy, a Shark is quite likely to be broader and heavier than either of the 'real world' aircraft I just mentioned... and a Triple-7 isn't small.

That said, I'm sticking with my inital statement: A Rogue Trader's shuttles are about as big as a decent sized jetliner today. So, the published numbers for carrying capacity in Into the Storm are way low. I told my players "The Arvus and Aquila are about the size of a regional jet, and only take up a half space in the shuttlebay. The other shuttles are about the size of a jumbo jet, and have equivalent carrying capacity" Works for me. Your mileage may vary.

Cheers,

- V.

According to Lexicanum ( http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Arvus_Lighter ), the Arvus Lighter is only 8.5m long.

SableWyvern said:

And looking at both freight capacity and every picture or model you'll find of the two crafts, the aquila can't be that much bigger. Which means that both are about the size of your typical aeronautica.

On a lighter note...there has been times when people have been shoved into cargo holds instead of passenger compartments/barracks. During the start of New World colonization, people bought tickets to the Americas and they were placed in hastily converted cargo holds. The slave trade was much the same with worse conditions. And a fictional note...during Marvel Comics "Age of Apocalypse", there was someone who used a large cargo vessel to transport normal humans to a safe place called Avalon (I think it was the Savage Land). Anyways, these people paid with everything they owned for safe passage and once they had reached a certain point? The cargo hold (which was normally so full people were dying from over-crowded conditions anyways) was opens to the sea and all inside were drowned and dumped to the bottom of the ocean (the location was a dumping point for all of the bodies from North America anyways so a few more didn't cause extra notice).

I'm not sure what the stats of such things would be and no good Imperium person would do such a thing I'm sure Though in a pinch, it could be considered if doing something desperate like an evac of a world in the face of a tyranid invasion.

Vandegraffe said:

Apply this broadly to pretty much anything and you arent too far off.

I just realized the normal Ork freebooter cannot be killed by a Lasgun, unless applying mass combat rules. The tabletop gamer in me is revolted.

Edge of the Abyss and the Rak'Gol prodded me in that direction. Realization dawned when a Storm Bolter wielded by an Arch-Militant couldnt really hurt the final boss of the Abyss Endeavour. Please bring at least a Plasgun or a comparable heavy weapon if you feel inclined to play FFG adventures? The Bolter, most iconic weapons of the Imperium. Useless against something that is not a vehicle? Sheesh.

*goes back grumbling into his lair, polishes the Reaper cannon and mumbles about Matt Ward being a soon to be daemonslave*

So out of curiosity. I have a Imperial Guard Regiment on board. How many barracks components do I need to house a hundred thousand strong force with all vehicles they need (tanks and such)? And how many Hangar Bays do I need to get them all dropped within 24 hours?

vastrix said:

A hundred thousand?

That's a bit more than just one regiment of Imperial Guard! Even if it's Valhallans. If you wanted to use one ship only, there would be no way around a Universe class here. Especially if you're carrying tanks as well (which would rather need cargo holds instead of barracks, if you ask me.)

Personally I'd say that each barracks component can hold about one usual regiment (read: something between 5 to 10 thousand soldiers).

I was looking at BFK and it had said a Imperial Guard Regiment was similar in organization to Brigades and Divisions. I went with the high end on Division sttrength. That number does sound reasonable though and I was not thinking of just one ship to hold them all. No all eggs in one basket here.

One on a cruiser.

But thats me.

First of all 100k troops are euqal to an army. 3 corps means 9 divisions plus support troops.

But then i have scaled up cruisers to nearly half a million crew (its a volume thing, i started with the sword frigate). Then putting 100k troops into a barracks nearly the same size is hardly a problem.

But then again do you play 40k as written, 100+ regiments (of around 5k troops) plus Space marines are enough to play out the 3rd Armageddon war, or do you play with more realistic numbers (AKA looking at WW2 and scaling from there)?

If you have a 40k numbers game, youll be looking at an army ready to go conquer a few planets and should get around half a dozen if not a full dozen transport ships. Id use one barracks per regiment of 5k troops.

if you play with more realistic numbers, put them on a cruiser with a barrack component, or hand them out to a few transport vessels with around 1-2 corps of 30k troops per transport vessel. (Probably multiple barrack components needed though). I will admit though that i have not calced a transport vessel yet.

Excluding the Universe, youd have around 2-3 million crew and enough space for a full crusade army ready to start conquering the craftworld of Eldar somewhere in the Koronus Expanse.

By the way: I was reminded by a few friends of mine today, that there obviously are Imperial Guard regiments with numbers up to somewhere around hundred thousand (Krieg, you sick bastards!). it is however not the norm and such a regiment will not be commanded by a mere Colonel anymore.

A typical Cadia seems to be around 16'000 if at full strength. Most other regiments somewhere around half of it. Valhallan regiments more like double or thrice the amount.

Beneath other things, this also depends on the cultural background and usually used tactics of the regiments. Where "Flood them!" is the tactic of choice (Krieg or Valhalla), regiments will naturally be bigger in numbers.

As for the game, as I said: I'd put one regiment per barrack component. As long as they're mainly infantry with only tank support and the odd Chimera, that's enough. If you want to field fully mechanised troops or big tank armies, I'd demand a cargo holds as well. With maybe two regiments per Main Cargo Hold, I honestly did not yet really think the numbers through when it comes to tanks.

And to field a hundred thousand men plus tanks from say a cruiser and three transports, it could imho be done in 24 hours with the standard available craft on the ships. To do it in half the time, about a squadron of support craft per ship would be needed. But that's just by rule of thumb now, without actually calculating it through. (Books are with a friend now, where we'll be playing again this afternoon.)

That sounds pretty good. Thanks!

Hey Guys, what would be a good ratio of Infantry to Mechanized Infantry to Armour for the amount of space a barracks can handle?

i.e. I have decided that barracks do scale (space being relative to the volume of a ship and the crew size) and that a Grand Cruiser with 2 barracks probably has room for 200k "infantry". So if it does that have much room, how many Mech Infantry could it have instead? How much armour? Artillery?

thanks.

HeavensThunderHammer said:

Those numbers are similar to the ones I use. I use 1 mechanized inf equals 2 infantry. Support is 1 to 3 (arty, anti air, engineers). Armor is 1 to 4.

Adjust as needed for special cases such as if they have a leviathan or some such.

HeavensThunderHammer said:

HeavensThunderHammer said:

At the point that you say 'I have decided that barracks do scale' is the point when the ratio of armor to infantry is also set by you.

I would make it so that the unit size is the determiner, so that an armour company takes as much space as an infantry company. So if I say that a barracks on a Grand Cruiser could hold about 6 regiments, they can be configured as wanted, say 3 infantry regiments, 2 mech infantry regiments and an armour regiment.

(numbers here are only used for illustrative purposes, I am not saying a regiment is 33000 men)

korjik said:

Well, the system itself is pretty arbitrary over a, I mean it is so abstract and inconsistent (linear mass, cubic volume) ratios that I figured I should do something to figure it out. Anyhow, the suggestions from the two of you are helpful, thanks!