Ranged just seems so superior...

Early:

Melee pros:
- Generally higher mobility
- Ability to parry (although, one parry or dodge per round)
- Tend to be better at grappling - although only because they put more points in strength, early on ranged can be about the same if they want to.

Ranged pros:
- Many, MANY more hits per round - 4 with 1 bolter, 8 with 2, up to 10 with a heavy bolter, versus 2 for melee, 3 if they dual-wield.
- Similar damage per hit - assuming SB of 10, a chainsword will do 1d10+13 with 4 pen while a Bolter will do 2d10+5 with 5 pen, meaning on a target with 5 or more armour (read: most targets) the bolter only needs a 7 on the second d10 to do as much damage - and the extra d10 is, of course, another chance at RF. A heavy bolter is just plain more powerful per hit, unless against a very lightly armoured target and rolling under 3.
- Better chance to hit - full auto plus range bonuses can be an easy +30, with more available in rarer circumstances. Melee get their charge - usually - and some ganging up bonuses if they all attack the same thing.
- Range - 100m for a basic bolter, compared to 1m for a melee weapon.
- More choice of weapons. Melee get either a Chainsword or one of the 4d10 damage weapons from RoB, which around half the GMs I see seem to think is just too many dice. Ranged get the three bolt weapons - as if they need more than that - more skill with grenades, missile launchers, flamers (Although I admit melee can use these as well - so long as they want to spend another set of exp on TWW (ranged) or lose a large amount of hit chance on their melee attacks.
- Non-reliant on strength for extra damage, so can put a good roll in Agility or Int or Perc or something.

So, maybe bring one melee to deal with anyone who gets in melee range of a ranged who doesn't have Acrobatics, since a Swift Attack is better than a Bolt Pistol single shot.


Later:

Melee pros:
- Still higher mobility. Oh, except that ranged can move and dakka in the same round, but hey.
- Higher damage per hit. Hurrah!
- Multiple reactions, three to be precise. Counterattack is also a nice thing, although a lot of heavy hitters are Unwieldy. Still, Lightning Claws.
- Can get to-hit bonuses, for like 1000 exp for 10 against a certain type of enemy. Or Frenzy, if you don't mind mindless bloodlust and are able to get it AND Battle Rage - unless you don't like parrying? So, they can get close to ranged in terms to bonuses.
- Lightning claws can do some decent pain if dual-wielded.
- Better grapplers. No questions asked, they are much better at it.

Not really sure where I'd put weapon choice - melee have a decent range now. I still think ranged have more, but won't put this point in either.

Ranged pros: (NOTE: Am not sure whether ranged can get Step Aside, I assume not for this)
- Yeah, you're getting 6-11 hits with your Heavy Bolter. Throw in some DW flamers (maybe even with C+P!) for hordes, maybe a launcher for long range, and you're set. Or heck, just use 2 storm bolters with Bolter Drill for a delicious 20 bullets, 2d10+5 Tearing dmg with 5 pen.
- A LOT more chances at RF. Apart from aforementioned 4d10 weapons and Lightning Claws, high end melee don't have tearing, and instead have Power Field so that they don't smash their weapons against Chaos's. Woop. If the ranged get some really nice rolls (ok, 50 under whatever their modified BS is) and land all 20 of those bullets I just mentioned, that's 60 chances at Righteous Fury - Tyrant-stompin' good! The Squad abilities only add to this difference - when melee get Lightning Attack from their charge, the ranged get another Full Auto Kill. I wonder which the squad leader is gonna go for?
- Still a way higher hit chance. Also, talents like Mighty Shot stack per bullet!
- Did I mention range?
- Still better with grenades. Sure melee can throw them further, but that's what Auxilary Launchers are there for! And missiles tend to be stronger - why bother flushing them out of cover when you can just remove the cover?
- Yet more to-hit bonuses from sights. Also, Gunslinger, no penalty for DWing!
- Sniping - yeah, ranged are just plain better at assassinations.

- Special ammo. Blast (2) bolts to melt hordes? 8 pen and 150m range to shred Chaos Marines? RIGHTEOUS FURY ON A 9 OR 10 FOR THOSE STORM BOLTERS and ignore natural armour (Tyranids? What Tyranids?)?
- Can start unloading full dakka right away - melee can't LA on a charge until the final rank, so they'll have to spend time getting in range and hoping their target doesn't burst under bolter fire before they can attack more than once.

So, again. One melee to mop up anything which slips through dakka alley? And remember, that's just 1 ranged.

Also, ranged don't get their faces smashed in as well by hordes dealing 3d10+whatever damage, they can use cover.
Honestly, the only way melee seem even slightly viable is with the big-number weapons from RoB, just to bring them back into the "slower hits than range, but a lot bigger" territory. And thats still kinda overshadowed by "up to 60 dice of damage, with RF on 9 or 10 for those special occasions"

Am I missing something? Would anyone play melee for a reason other than they think it sounds cooler (right up until the ranged upstage you totally), or "our group needed one melee"?

I normally play Librarians and Tac Marines, and usually can do both dakka and stabby to varying degrees. Yes shooting can be very good, but in a good campaign there will be places where everyone will have chances to shine.

Would you fire that heavy bolter around a plasma reactor, or in a set of data stacks you need information from? If you could set up the perfect crossfire ambush point, wouldn't it better to gun them all down instead of melee? Blow a door and announce our presence and risk losing our quarry, or let the Techmarine crack the lock and give us a few more minutes of 'suprise'? Etc. This does place a burden on the GM to design events that challenge the Kill Team and give everyone moments where they go 'I'm glad I'm playing this toon' Might not be able to happen every mission, but rotating missions in such a way that everybody gets moments to shine with their choosen abilities, is important to keep any group around.

So in a round about way, I guess I'm saying ranged/melee doesn't matter, play what you enjoy, and in a good group you will have opportunities to shine.

The simplest aspect you are skipping is that melee locks opponents out of using their basic/heavy weapons, which may be critical. The key is that the group needs balance. Sure a kill team of all devastators can crank out damage, but they quickly discover a need for a highly mobile melee expert to keep the gaunts off them.

Like I mentioned, one token melee to deal with anything which makes it though the wall of dakka... or I guess distract a single gun-wielding heretic who is standing within his charge range and who the ranged cannot deal with for some reason - and the melee often has to decide this before the ranged act, because of the easier agility advances, meaning the ranged suddenly risk hitting their melee. Or just hitting with less shots if the GM isn't using the "shooting into melee hurts the melee" rule. And if they're not why aren't you just getting your Apothecary or something to spray down whatever comes close, or just headshot it with something Accurate?

The only thing I think melee is good at is survivability in melee. Shooty guys cant survive long in melee, if a genestealer gets to you, you have to go on defense and hope the assault can save you in the next couple rounds.

I agree with you they are weak in every other comparison, I also think a techmarine makes a better assaulty guy once he gains a few ranks.

Hm, Techies? Why? I'd think the lack of Swift/Lightning would be crippling.

Tribute said:

In my group our Iron priest has swift attack from that one rob deed. He is rank 5 with artificer armor and good toughness, He rarely uses his reaction to parry or dodge, he just uses it for the servo arm attack. So he gets three attacks that way and is tough enough to eat hits to the face, alot tougher then an assault marine. If I remember correctly, by rank 4 a csm with chainsword could not hurt him at all and a bolter could only do a couple damage max.

Thunder Hammer ftw, concussive is godlike. and the ability to combine with Storm Sheild. The AM in my group hardly ever takes damage.

A small thing to comment on, but I do not believe you can in fact attack with two bolters on full auto. Bolt pistols yes, but as per pg. 239 it requires pistol class to double full auto. Now a storm bolter, it can put 8 rounds into someone per full auto. More with bolter drill.

In the end though, I agree melee is less damaging. Its just one of those things that make sense for the setting. Full auto rockets launchers (bolters) are just better than using chain saws. There are many ways melee is useful, such as locking enemies down and taking away some of their strong attacks. In the end, its all about jobs. The AM says "You shall not pass" The Dev says "You shall die". And the kill-team wins the day.

xandarian said:

Interesting, I must have skimmed over that, and the section on Two Weapon Fighting only states "ranged weapon". Wonder whether Pistol in the FAB is just left over from when you could only use pistols 1-handed... Still, that does reduce the gap a bit if it's intended, so I'd guess it is. Guess even Space Marines aren't awesome enough to fire two Basics on Full Auto.

I agree that when all aspects are even, ranged weapons win over melee weapons; hence why modern armies use assault rifles and not swords. That being said, Space Marines are, for the most part, built on high ideals of honour, one-on-one tests of combat or the sheer lust to experience combat at point blank range. It is fundamentally a part of the character from a role playing idea. From the game play we have had so far, when a straight up shooting match starts (not a planned ambush), it usually means the Kill-team blew it some where and are hoping firepower and dice rolls will be enough.

But as others have pointed out, melee weapons eliminate returned fire from all but pistol weapons. They also do not jam, overheat, etc. They do not run out of ammo (a big advantage on spec-ops missions). Most of them have special abilities beyond simple damage and PEN, especially Force weapons or sanctified weapons. As for Damage, adding the Str Bonus to each each is a pretty steady way to do damage each Round. Also, there are more Talents, such as Takedown, Disarm, etc., that can be used beyond just increasing Damage output. (My group still tries to "subdue" and capture fleeing enemies with bolter rounds with no success so far.)

As someone else pointed out, the GM should think of environment, also. The intro adventure took place in a promethium refinery; when I made it a point to account for the first missed shots, the group started to play like they were really worried about blowing the whole place up on accident. On the same lines, boarding parties tend to use a lot of melee because of close quarters and stray rounds breaching thinks like viewports (I have a hard time seeing anything less than a melta or so breaching the hull) or damaging internal components.

Just some things that came to mind when reading this post.

-Cynr

If you have a large number of foes shooting at you, closing to melee range would mean that they risk hitting their allies. So it will reduce the number of shots hitting you.

The horde rules do reflect this, with the hordes number of melee attacks being intendant of the hordes size. Though that does mean more ranged attacks heading towards your team members.

Bilateralrope said:

If you have a large number of foes hacking at you in hand to hand, you're probably just as ******. Even without the Horde rules, they will often gain bonuses from outnumbering you, and it really seems as if everything out there is better at hand-to-hand than Deathwatch PCs (excepting the Tau) - even the 'typical' Chaos Space Marine has a higher WS than most non-Assault specialists plus Hatred against you for another +10 to WS and Swift Attack. Tyranid Warriors and Genestealers don't need to be mentioned, but I'm willing to bet even Necron Warriors probably have the capacity to *****-slap the Deathwatch boys around.

It's simple, if you play in a game where ranged is allowed to rule the day, it will. Same as if you play in a game and your PCs are always getting engaged in melee, melee will then rule the day. If you're in a game where you have characters with super high tougness and armor and your enemies are armed with chainswords, you won't take damage.

In a balanced game, both specializations will have their opportunity to shine, and in a balanced game, you will need both aspects of skill for your kill team to do well on its missions.

We've reduced all the damage of Bolt Weapons by 3, and modded other ranged weapons (upping Melta/Plasma strength, etc.). It's balanced things out and made melee a tad more appealing.

We changed melee damage to hordes so that if the weapon you hit them with had a PEN that equalled or beat their Armour, you got a hit per degree of success. If the PEN doesn't beat them, you do damge as normal i.e. per 2 degrees of successs.

It means the Chainsword goes through rubbish hordes better and more damage is done whilst getting a power sword is good for hacking Tau hordes - there is then some point to upgrading your melee weapon for fighting hordes. Seems to capture the fluff better as well...

Alex E

i run most fights as close range affairs after all most of time you will be close up fighting in buildings , spaceships , alien lairs etc here the long range and heavy rofs help for a round only then it becomes up close and personal , all players get to shine and all engage in close in combat , a libby with force sword, an assualt marine taking names and kicking some, apoc using toxins all get in , the devastator has his day vs hordes and heavy armour but an assualt marine with the right skills , talents and a good armour history can really punch a whole.

yes modern forces use guns , but most special forces also carry knives , such as the British Royal marines , (I even know a british soldier who got a confirmed kill with an entrenching tool in the first gulf war and yes he did take the head off with a shovel )

Tribute said:

Lol. If your GM can't get through a wall of dakka, then he's doing it wrong. Have you seen Aliens?

Most seriously deadly combats end up at melee range. Someone has to stand there and take it in the face. And if it's not someone who is decent at melee, they'll be dead in 2 rounds.

Range might do damage, but it really lacks survivability up close and personal. It's about balance. Do you want to be Mr High Damagw, or Mr Still Alive?

Because it's Awesome.

The same reason any type of fighting is used.

Siranui said:

Of course your GM can get through it, the question is if he can do it without just using fiat and saying "You fail to kill them all at range because I want melee fighting so I just add enemies until some get through."

Many seriously deadly combats can be decided with heavy firepower and bombardment. The Tau can serve it up that way, and Space Marines can win battles that way too. I doubt that the close-in guys are really any more survivable in such situations.

Mobility isn't necessarily limited to melee. Nothing stops a guy from firing a bolter (or storm bolter) from the sky using a jump pack, and land speeders are pretty **** good examples of mobile shooty death gone wild.

HappyDaze said:

True enough, and some GMs apparently cannot. It's my opinion those GMs should brush up on their running skills before trying out a combat focused high power level game such as DW.

Charmander said:

OTOH, perhaps the players are just using good thinking and playing to their characters' strengths. If they like shooty and shooty works, where's the problem? I make sure to know the tone and feel before making a character in a game. Much of the WH40K tabletop mini game is decided in close combat, but much of Deathwatch combat is decided with Full Auto bolters! My players and I accept that and prefer it. It doesn't hurt that we typically agree that bringing a knife to a gunfight is not preferred over bringing a gun of your own. Melee is, IMO, something most wise Space Marines will avoid in Deathwatch since their superiority really shines when unloading guns at the foul xenos.

My Blood Angel apothecary just reached rank 4 (and distinguised renown) so have just kitted him out with storm shield (master Wargear) and will take thunder hammer with pre-mission req.

He has quite a few insanity points (just shy of primarch's curse), i've upped his weapon skill and agility PLUS i took frenzy early on and introduced my own personal rule where i rol a 50/50 chance of flipping out every time i get hit/annoyed/looked at funny and have recently started feasting on the blood of my victims (subtley of course) - what i'm trying to say is... if you play a melee character right IT'S A FRIKKING HOOT!!! so much more fun to dive in screaming at the top of you lungs, ripping someones throat out with your chainsword while chomping down on some unfortunates neck than to just stand there firing off round after round after round after round after round (ad nauseum).

Can't wait til next week to see how the extra tanky (shield) and big squishie (hammer) wielding blood monkey gets on with his new toys

SomVone said:

This.

If you don't like it, then shoot things instead. If you don't like it simply because it's perceived as being somehow mechanically weaker than another option, then perhaps a roleplaying game isn't the thing for you.

Siranui said:

That depends. If your character perceives it as being an inferior option, then all's well for roleplaying again.

A player choosing the mechanically superior choice shouldn't call into question their ability to roleplay, just as making a mechanically poor choice shouldn't automatically be seen as a sign of good roleplaying.