KlausFritsch said:

So, atleast 5 of the 8 sceenarios plays great. Thats not bad at all actually.

longagoigo said:

One should not have to interpret the meaning of rules if written properly. And that card is not written to designate ONLY Elites as having gained the bonus. I agree that the word "Elite" might lead one to believe that it only applies to Elite Infantry. But that's not how the card is written. It is written " Your attacking squads gain +1 firepower per figure in the squad's base ". Not " per Elite figure ". Not " per figure in the squad's base that is an Elite ".

The card is either poorly written or poorly executed.

Grand Stone said:

Where are you seeing that 5 of 8 are playing well? I have only seen account of one scenario (the 5th one) playing with any type of balance.

Scammer said:

I'm just wondering if the card had been titled 'Officer Formation' or 'Mortar Formation' and then had the same description, would people assume that 'per figure' meant all figures? I believe that 'how a card is written' does in fact include the title. And the word 'figure' can function much like a pronoun, so we would look to its antecedent, which in this case would be the information 'elite' in the title. If we start with the assumption that the designer/writer of the card was trying to make the elite members of the squads more powerful [rather than the whole army], then from that point of view, giving the card the title 'Elite Formation' was probably thought to be clear enough. Of course, more could have been written in the description to make it absolutely clear.

Since people who take it to mean all figures are complaining about it being too powerful and causing scenarios to be unbalanced, does taking it to mean elite infantry make it more reasonable and bring the scenarios into balance? If yes, then it is better to call the card poorly written, than to keep applying the effect to all figures.

Scammer said:

Ah! my mistake. There is a difference between 5th and 5

longagoigo said:

I would simply like to know, from those who playtested and created the game, which it is. I think it can be agreed upon that the card, as it stands today, is confusing at best due to it's capacity for multiple interpretations. The simple inclusion of two words in the text of the card would have been sufficient to eliminate all doubts and confusion.

Hi All based on my memory from a year ago i used elite formations for all infantry.mortar and machine gun units. this was to represent the SS and Soviet Guards units ability to have more guys in squads lay down fire than the average unit as they understood they where the shock troops of the German army. also they got the Best and newest equipment first most of the time. i realize this makes some units very powerful but this card was designed to be used with very few tokens if any at all as the firepower upgrade makes most of them not required. i hope this helps

BJaffe01

But, was it intended to get these bonuses versus vehicles also?

This scenario certainly looks a bit "challenging" for the Soviets!

I'm more worried about the german AT-firepower than the "Elite Formations" card though. One very simple houserule that can make a big difference is to make the player with starting initiative deploy last instead of first. I would suggest this as a general rule for all scenario's by the way. When faced with fixed defences, it's the attackers who deploy according to what they (expect) to face ... the defenders will just have to face whatever comes towards them.

By the way, don't underestimate the effect of sabotage!

Yes even against vehicles. i know that's a powerful increase but it does represent the ability of certain units to cause damage above and beyond normal.

BJaffe01

BJaffe01 said:

You say "certain" (underscore mine), but the card gives all units a powerful increase in both AP and AT firepower.

A german MG for example, now has roughly a 50% chance to damage a T-34 at normal range ...

I really like the card and the idea that's behind it, but I am also strongly in favour giving it a minor restriction:

- bonus doesn't apply to heavy infantry weapons (I prefer this one)

or

- can't be used against vehicles

Latro said:

Some good points there...

I feel this rendering of the card would have been both more balanced and realistic:

"When this card is in play, all squads fire one more die than what they would be entitled to based on the number of figures in the squad".

Example: You have a regular and an elite infantry making up a squad: normal firepower is 3 against infantry, 2 against vehicles, would now become 4 and 3 respectively.

BJaffe01:

I'm sure there did exist potent anti-tank tactics/weapons which could justify the firepower, but you have to be hyper carefull with its use. Allowing infanteri a base of 8 dice in firepower versus vehicles would significantly shift the balance between infanteri & tanks, to the point that you need MGs to protect you tank from infanteri assults. And you realy got to design the entire scenario spesifically with this card in mind.

If you add it just for fun without thinking, it will most likely lead to an unbalanced scenario

How about changing the cart to something like this: "youre regular infantry and oficers have firepower 2 and elite infantry firepower of 3 against infantry"

?

well i really hope we see an updated scenario editor with all expansions really soon, then I think we will see a whole bunch of new scenarios which im guessing that 100% of them not using this card. Its only one card and if we have fans of the game making the scenarios i think then this topic on the forum will become a distant memory

I also think that the expert squad specialization tokens would be good at representing ss and guards troops

yes indeed the card needed to playtested carefully. thats why i used it where i did. the opposing player knows that operation card is in effect and should change his tactics accordingly. when the Soviets attacked SS units they where prepared to loose 3-5 divisions against one SS division. 12th SS survied being pounded by 2 comonwealth divisions. i think the Elite Formations card is fine just be real careful in it's use

BJaffe01

I'll be giving this scenario a go and I'll post my thoughts afterwards. Innitially I thought the expert specialization would have been enough but I'm interested to see how a change in tactics might work to counter this card.

BJaffe01 said:

Personally a cover bonus against suppressive attack makes more sense to me that a 100% (!) increase in firepower. So what about: regular infantry and heavy weapon infantry also add +1 defense against suppressive attacks, just like officers and elites.

Patate said:

Rerolling an X number of dice indeed seems less overpowered and more in line with actual performance in the field than DOUBLE the amount of firepower.

Kingtiger said:

I am not so sure about that.

In one of their books on the Normandy Campaign, the authors of flames of war have a two-page comparison of actual firepower output of a British squad with the Bren LMG and a German squad with two MG42 LMGs. I do not have the book here in the office, but if I remember correctly, the difference was quite distinct, maybe even more than double. I will look that up in the evening.

And that was bolt-action rifles coupled with LMGs. If you replace the rifles with Sturmgewehr44 assault rifles, the difference would be even greater.

Note also, that BJaffe said, this card was intended to model scenarios where one side was outnumbered. This is obviusly not the case for the meat-grinder scenario.

KlausFritsch said:

It's not like non-elite German formations were NOT equipped with MG 42's. Also, though I understand your points regarding the Sturmgewehr, the elite formations card has the words "potential game-breaker" written all over it....It completely ruins the balance between vehicle and squad interaction in the game.

Kingtiger said:

I agree that the card changes the game and the way to approach tactical situations when it is in play. It also makes balancing scenarios with it in play quite hard, I would guess.

I would prefer to keep its use limited to a few scenarios and to use the Expert specialization instead. The Expert specialization also has the advantage of not turning ALL your infantry into rapid-firing killing machines.