I've played the first two scenarios yesterday and I was very surprised how overpowered the german forces seem to be.

The Card "Elite Formations" gives the german squads +1 per figure in the squad. That results in a 12 dice row for an elite squad!!!

Had we misinterpretated anything?

Greetings from germany.

Dogma79 said:

Don't own FoTB yet, unfortunately, byt from what you're explaining, it sounds right. Certainly seems overpowered. Have the feeling anyway that they tend to go overboard with many specialization tokens (alpha, beta, expert) and op-cards. Of course in your example such an elite squad will have the word "target" written all over it, so it might generally be a better idea to distribute such figures among your divisions rather than concentrating all of them.

Agree! WAY too overpowering.

Combine anti-tank (+3) along with a standard squad of infantry (+4) and you have a regular squad rolling 11 dice against a tank!!! It's more powerful than armor!! Like you said, a squad of elites gets 12 dice on an attack! Give them the new Expert specialization and they get to re-roll 4 misses.

Ridiculous

Who play tests this stuff?

Scammer said:

You can't combine specialization tokens. So an expert squad would fire 8 dice against a tank, which is only one more than with the anti-tank squad token, which is not so bad.

i playtested the hell out of Elite Formations so it would work right. Elite formations allows for firepower of SS and soviet Guards units which had more automatic weapons than a normal squad by as much as double.

BJaffe01

BJaffe01 said:

Sounds reasonable to me.

BJaffe01 said:

The application of that firepower against armored vehicles seems strange, though (I don't have the op card in front of me right now).

Meta Baston said:

So the card is to be treated as a specialization token? Because it's not specified as a token. It's a blanket modifier to all squads on the field. It's an Operation Card.

You can't combine specialization tokens

Where in the rules is this?

KlausFritsch said:

KlausFritsch said:

The card verbatim:

Your attacking squads gain +1 firepower per figure in the squad's base. During combined fire, only the leading squad receives this attack bonus. Units on Op Fire receive no bonus

So, your four elite infantry will roll 12 dice against a tank. Wanna move and shoot? Roll 6 dice. So your elites can rush a T-34 and roll more dice than the armor (and hit on a 4+ through close combat). So, the odds are greatly in your favor.

Now, as mentioned in a previous post, is the Operation Card supposed to act as a token and not be combinable? Because if not, combine it with the Expert token or the Anti-Tank token and you've got yourself a very, VERY powerful squad there.

2 scenario's in and this card seems awful overpowered. Especially with the makeup of the scenario's. Take the Meat Grinder scenario for example. Not only do the Germans start out with more squads (12 vs 10), they get reinforcements (3 more squads and 2 more Panthers) on Turn #3. The Germans get 2 Panthers and 2 PaK's versus the Soviets 4 T-34/76's, a KV-1 and an SU-122. Without the Operation Card, it's fairly balanced. Throw the Elite Formations card on the Germans, and it's as if they've got 20 squads for the firepower that they have (add in an anti-tank squad and an Expert Unit squad to boot!).

ToI has been hampered in previous sets with unbalanced scenarios. Scenarios that simply didn't seem very thoroughly playtested. And it's simply my opinion that this card, Elite Formations, wasn't well thought out nor this particular scenario. But I guess that's what you get with ToI.

Now, could it be that the wording is simply poor on the card (I just spoke to a fellow gamer who's a "rules lawyer" and he pointed something out)

Again, the card states:

"Your attacking squads gain +1 firepower per figure in the squad's base......"

Could they have meant that YOUR squad gets +1 firepower for every ENEMY figure in their base? This would limit the attack to squad vs squad only (no attacks versus armor getting the bonus). If this IS the case, they (FFG) really f-ed up the verbiage. When they say "...per figure in the squad's base..." do they mean the shooters base or the target's base? Totally changes the meaning of the card based on that.

Dogma79 said:

My mistake! I misread the whole thing. Sorry!

Could they have meant that YOUR squad gets +1 firepower for every ENEMY figure in their base?

That's a really interesting idea, but that would be a misprint!!

We need official clarification!!!

Dogma79 said:

Well, the card does say "THE" squad. Doesn't necessarily specify. So, if one wanted to read it as such, they COULD argue that it referenced the targetted squad and not the shooting squad.

I agree, I'd like to see some clarification. We're just about done with the 2nd scenario again, and the Soviets just don't stand a chance. You let the German squads (squads, NOT armor, squads!) roll 8-15 dice every attack...AND get reinforcements...it's a slaughter. It's kind of funny watching the German Expert specialization squad running around, run up to a tank, roll 6 dice, and get to re-roll 4 of them. They've already single handedly heavily damaged a pair of T-34/76's via close combat. Well, funny if you're playing the Germans. Not so funny if you're playing the Soviets.

Scammer said:

That seems wrong...

KlausFritsch said:

Exactly! It just doesn't seem right. Yet, I can't see where, in the rules, it states that this isn't what is done. The Operation Card (which isn't a specialization token) states +1 firepower per figure. The Expert token allows a re-roll for each figure in the squad. 4 elites are typically 8 dice (4 x 2). The Operation Card gives them another 4 dice to get to 12. Move and shoot, cut it in half. So they get to move, roll 6 dice, and re-roll 4 of them. Against a tank!

We just finished Scenario #2. After the 4th turn, the Soviets were down to 4 squads, the German reinforcements just showed up, and the Soviet armor were burning wrecks. Shoot, the Germans don't even NEED armor to win that scenario. Just sit back and roll twice as many dice as the Soviet armor (or better yet, 2 regulars and 2 elites get 10 dice, shooting on a Soviet squad in a house. 10 vs 3 on the dice. EVERY turn.

Yeah, that's a fun experience.

Before this flaming continius, just a few imortant comments:

Elites have firepower 2 versus infanteri, but firepower 1 versus tanks! So with that OP card that give 8 dices versus tanks, 4 with shoot and move (instead of 6). With expert you can rerol all misses. Its still preaty bad, and the probability of lightly and even heavily damage is quit high.

However, if you also add that the OP card probably should read +1 firepower versus INFANTERI, but no bonuses verus tanks, you get a totaly different picture. That leaves 2 dices in a shoot & move action versus a tank. With expert you get to reroll all your misses. It can still do some damage, but even with the expert, the probability is fairly low.

An expert at point-blank range get 4 dices against a tank and can reroll all misses. Thats still fairly potent, as 3-4 hits are not uncommon, but I find thats fine. It is an specilization which you have to put in a dangerous position. And probably, you can only shoot if you win the initative. If you dont act first, the russians may react an prevent you from firing at point blank range in the first place. And given the expert power in other actions, its probably a waste anyway. (unless ofcourse you have killed all enemy infanteri...)

Try to play the scenario the way it was suppose to, then come back with a review. Cuz I guess in this scenario the russian armor shines, and it sounds like an great tank versus infanteri battle...

(ps! anybody know if the game has come to stores in stockholm?)

Grand Stone said:

Probably SHOULD, but it doesn't. And I agree, although it's still heavily biased against the Soviets.

Grand Stone said:

We have. Twice now. With the rules AS WRITTEN, it's a slaughter. And a tank vs infantry battle? The Germans get a pair of Panthers to start along with a pair of PaK's, and then 2 more at the end of Round 3 (along with a couple machine gun squads)! More squads, deadlier squads, and more armor.

Oh, and whatever advantage that the Soviet armor MAY have against the infantry due to range/building bonus? You lose LOS beyond 3 hexes half the time due to the Snow Squalls card (on a roll of 4-6, snow limits LOS to 3). So much for softening up the infantry bunkered into the buildings. By the time you get up to the infantry, the Panthers and PaK's are ready to blow you away. And did I mention that the Germanshave access to more command points after the first turn (they start with 3, and the building in the center of the map gets them another 2 rather easily). The Soviets have access to 4. So say goodbye to initiative (especially if you want to save up for the Kayabusha (sp?)).

I'm just saying, the first two scenarios so far have not inspired me to think that FFG learned their lessons from the previous sets (primarily the first and then Normandy). There seemed to be more unbalanced scenarios in the expansions and base game than there should have been. The best scenarios have always been the fan-created stuff. Which is sad.

wow i'm not familiar with this scenario at all as i don't have a game yet myself. before you give up try the other scenarios and see how it goes. i agree in this case it sounds like the card affects play all out of proportion to what the design intent was.

BJaffe01

Ah! I see.

I thought the german got two Paks and then later got two panthers... Obviusly, with 2 panthers out of the bat, and then you get two more later,... then the germans have an advantage both regarding tanks AND infanteri. If this is the case I agree, the scenario is broken.

My recommendations to all ToI players is to judge the balance of the scenario apriori. There is no point in playing an unbalanced scenario when there exsist other balanced fun ones.

Regarding fan-based: it would have been so nice to have a book of quality ensured fan-based scenario, in quality color print.

hi,

i second that this op card is very intense. to fix the 2nd scenario (which is right now broken from my point of view, too), just use the new special rule, that both germans and soviets get use of this op card . maybe this was typo, that this op card was not dedicated as "shared" !? then you get "the real meat grinder-feeling", hehe... :-)

greetz from germany!!!

BJaffe01 said:

Since you playtested FoTB; what WAS the design intent then (only works against enemy infantry??)?

I still don't have my own copy. FLAGS syas end of the week now. Still, I'm a bit worried about what I'm hearing about the balance of this (and perhaps other) scenario. It's not so bad that the relase was pushed back so many times, if that means that the final product is all but flawless. Unfortuntaley, it seems far from that now...

As a bystander without FotB, I'm a little confused by this discussion. On the one hand, sometimes it seems that people are saying that the card 'Elite Formations' is being applied to the elite members of the squads, as KingTiger suggests in the first response in the thread. Other times, it seems people are thinking it applies to all infantry and complaining that it is overpowered. Perhaps, we need to read the title of the card, Elite Formations, when interpreting the meaning of 'per figure' in the description.

Kingtiger said:

So far I have played scenario 5, and that plays great.

So far, only the Elite Formations card seems to be somewhat power-creepy, especially when applied against vehicles with armor 1 or more.

I say somewhat, because later in the war, there were some infantry weapons like the MP43, MP44 and Sturmgewehr 44 assault rifles which could put out incomparably higher firepower than bolt-action rifles. These bullets would still bounce off a Sherman, though.

Still, these assault rifle squads certainly had more than twice the firepower of a bolt-action rifle or even a semi-automatic rifle squad. Add to that a light MG42 per squad, and you have the potentlial for an incredible hail of lead.

I agree that Elite Formations should have better been an assault rifle specialization affecting only infantry targets instead of an Operations Card.

how does Elite Fromations work for Mortars ?

Squad with 1 mortar + 2 regular infantry is dooing normal attack , 2 dices + 3 for each figure -> 5 ??

I can accept that card for regular / elite infantry as a elite SS groups with enhanced firepower and skills but Mortars and MG`s are way too strong.