monkeylite said:

I am spoiled as well, with players who will gimp themselves if it fits their character best. But I was speaking out for the GM's who (and I know there are some) are struggling with keeping Munchkin players in place.

I had one, who wanted to join my group, and he owned the game allready. He wanted to play a Shieldbreaker, I said it would be hard with the setup I had explained thoughroughly to him, with all players being human... He begged and begged, and I said that I would allow a dwarf if he made a good background, so I knew he would actually be able to roleplay one (yeah, harsh GM...). He made a sh*tty background, so I humoured him and let him make a shieldbreaker... some Munchkin fiddling with stats later (zero in wealth, as he likely knew he would still get a handweapon and his armour...), dumped Int/Fel, he finally had his char ready.

Here came the dealbreaker for him when I told him, that he wouldn't get the armor, as I felt it was to strong, but I'd allow him to work for it, and get it at some point... Dear Lord, what a sour face... I asked him if he wanted to play something else... but that was kinda it really, he tried hard to convince me that it was okay, rules etc... blah blah blah.

In short, I hate/loathe players who think the point of rpg's is to beat the GM, and using rules is the way to go about at it. I love players who look at career cards and say: "F...! this looks fun to play, I'm gonna be a low and dirty smuggler, specializing in smuggling rare bird feathers!"

Sorry about confusing the thread asking about the raw of losing career abilities and out of career action cards, I wanted it purely for personal reference, as in the games I run I have a very open interpetation of the careers, and in all the years since 2nd edition was released I am yet to play a character, so I was only asking for point of reference.

I think the subject of this thread come down to simply how a Gm and his players view careers, and if they see them as strict rulings or just simply roleplay guidelines... Niether is wrong, and the former should always be assumed in offical or organised events but for a regular group I have always found that the latter is far more enjoyable and that is the only way I will play. If I want hard and fast rules unflexible rules I will play a board game or a computer game to me Roleplay is about being creative and using that creativity in a positive and fun way, hence why I most def would NEVER make a wizard/priest have to leave his order for using a different career to add more background depth. I understand the gamest concerns, if im honest I am a total "meta gamer" and I have no general problem with "meta gaming" but only is it is to the general enhancement of the story. As a whole Meta Gaming does not break a game as long as it is done with good roleplay and that player does not take over the story...

Crimsonsun

crimsonsun said:

Well, that was certainly my intention of the thread. It seemed clear to me FFG left it up to the groups to decide, and while I am pretty sure I know how I want to run it, I was curious how other groups were interpretting it.

It's a truism that any vision of the game that works for a group is a valid way to play.

For me it comes down the verisimilitude of the setting. I do not like game mechanics intruding into the roleplaying experience. I'd see a rigid application of career mechanics as an intrusion into 'naturalism' of the world. In some games, game mechanics like careers are integrated into the game world - like Earthdawn. But WFRP isn't like that. The career system is an attempt to manage character development in a naturalistic way (I believe). So applying it in an intrusive way wouldn't work for me.

...And I see a PC's career choice as their CAREER choice. It is a mindset and vocation both. If a PC wants to be a wizard who knows how to pick locks, then he can take a non-career skill in skullduggery. If he is choosing to leave the wizard career and become a thief, that PC is no longer thinking about being a wizard and advancing himself as a wizard. He is focused/dedicating himself on being a thief, NOT being a wizard. He won't lose what he has already learned, but he is no longer associating or maintaining any sort of dedication to the wizard career. <shrug>

For example, it's perfectly easy and reasonable for the undercover witch hunter to remain in his witch hunter career while posing as a smuggler. If he switches to a smuggler career, then in my mind he has been "converted" to a smuggler's viewpoint, and no longer considers himself a witch hunter. Hunting witches becomes "in his past". He has embraced the idea/mindset of being a smuggler and has given up the desire to be a witch hunter.

It becomes especially important for important organizations, IMO. The Colleges of Magic don't like their wizards running off and concentrating on non-wizardly things. In their view, Magic is dangerous, and a wizard should always put being a wizard first and foremost. They must constantly be on guard against corruption. A wizard who leaves the career is turning his back on the College as far as I can see, since being a wizard is no longer the PCs primary focus. This is a no-no for the College, which will hunt the PC down for questioning and testing for fear they have fallen to Chaos. The priesthoods won't be as fervent, but unlikely to allow someone to advance in their ranks, then give up their vocation/position, and then return at a later point in the same capacity.

Similarly, a Troll Slayer cannot just switch out to a smuggler, and then later return to Giant Slayer as if nothing happened. A troll Slayer who switches to a smuggler is no longer a troll slayer. They aren't a "Troll Slayer who is dabbling/focusing in smuggling". Somehow they have expunged their shame (without dying) and become a 'contributing' member of society again.

As I said, I see Careers as the dedicated vocation/mindset of the PC. If they want to pick up/dabble/focus in skills that aren't normally available, they may take these as out of career advances. If they change careers, they are telling me that their PC no longer considers that career to be their PC's primary focus/mindset. It is "history". The PC has essentially given up that career/vocation and dedicated themselves to something else. They are no longer interested in advancing themselves or associating with the previous career.

Of course, I do allow players to "transition" directly back into their current career if they'd like, rather than forcing them to move on to a different one.