What’s your take on spellcasters taking non-obvious careers between the standard progressions? One of my players has a Sigmarite priest, and he definitely is in the militant, go forth and smite the unholy, built more like a warrior mold. In point of fact, he’s considering taking soldier or mercenary as his second career to represent the more militant nature of the character.

I think this is fine, and would allow the character to continue taking blessings as advances and what not, but it has sparked some debate in the group. I’m inclined to take careers very loosely, even figuratively. For instance when playing a grey wizard I thought of taking Grave Robber as his second career, as that what he seemed to be doing a fair bit of. But he’d still be an ‘apprentice wizard’ as far the world was concerned… just one who was spending a bunch of time adventuring and tomb robbing. That GM seemed less open-minded. He seemed to think that if you moved to a non-spell casting career you practically ‘resigned’ from your role as an apprentice wizard.

How are you all handing it?

As a gm i would not have a prablem with this,but i would not allow blessing or spell actions as advances.

I am all about trying to stick with a character concept as long as it is within most of the ruled,good story or backround will sway me but it must be a very good reson.

So in your example of a acolyte going to solder i would say that the pc is still studying and practacing his religan but is allso joining the military it would be as close to a cross class as you could get with warhammer. This allso happens in real life a priest that is in the millatery.

1 more point as per RAW you can switch careres with out finishing them so he could just flop back and forth between the 2. in my apinion that is the beat option.

RARodger said:

I would have absolutely no problem with it and would allow him to learn spells in his new career. In fact I think it's a great way to represent 4th and 5th rank priests and wizards. A Battle Wizard (4th rank) would be just a mix of martial and magecareers, while a (Master Wizard? Can't remember the title right now) would be a mix of mage and scholarly careers.

I allow it, but just as angrydragon I do not allow advances to buy spell/blessings while in other careers.

k7e9 said:

Same here

If you haven't finished and got the dedication bonus for a spell casting career you lose the Faith/Order ability.

Purchasing spellcasting actions or advancing in spellcasting skills would have non-career costs.

This is the third time of me writing this reply due to stupid internet disconnections so I will be pretty direct to the point, but would like to say this is only my interpretation of the rules and i do not mean to devalue other opinions.

I would totally allow this and in regards to the following;

Order faith cards; firstly you only lose career ability for not completing you dedication bonus, losing a order/faith card should only be done in game by leaving or being ejected from the order. Only grey area here is if they can be socketed in a talent socket, i would allow but this requires house rule because it is not mentioned in the rules. I would not allow to be socketed into a party sheet though without the prequisite socket

Increased/restricted advances/costs; yes on spellcraft/invocation/channelling/piety skills, but no with action cards as such restrictions do not exist other than of buying cards from outside your order/faith rank but this is told to be a GM decision in the rules. this reflects a less focused learning of casting techniques

character rank for casting ability; Not fully covered in the rules, I would rule that only specific order/faith careers grant increased effective caster level, but this is a house rule based in change of focus.

Careers; I see most as general concepts so in your case of a initiate I would offer to rename the career Initate Warrior priest or something like that, as the career's as i read the rules have general interpretations not and are ironclad descriptions/definitions. Obviously if the player wished to join the military and become a soldier that is a very different story.

Stance; I would however insist if using an orders/faith ablities/cards he must use that stance meter, because a characters disposition is not going to alter much from that path while working directly for that order, and I consider this a key part of how there order requires them to act.

This is just how I would handle things, and has not required any changes to the RAW as i read it, except in regards to stance and making rulings on things not covered by the rules as i deemed to make the most sense.

Edit: I would most definately NOT allow a character to use faith/order cards together as this is strictly against the background of the Warhammer world, due to the way these abilities are invoked, you can be either Arcane or Divine but never both. The only time this is ever a grey area is in regards to chaos worshippers, but even then I cannot think outside of daemonic creatures and perhaps Archeaon that this will affect.

This is my opinion but as stated in the rules play however you have the most fun.

Thanks Crimsonsun

Essentially, if the PC leaves the priest/wizard career path they are focusing their efforts/career in a different direction. They are no longer dedicated to their previous career path and no longer focused on their religion/order. If a PC wants to remain an "official" representative then they must remain in the career path. If they want to branch out but remain an official member, then they should use cross-career purchases of skills.

Yes, if they do not complete the career and buy the dedication bonus then they lose their Order/Faith card. First and foremost, Order/Faith cards are required (excepting hedge witches) in order to be able to purchase spells/blessings in the first place.

I would allow it without penalty in roleplay terms (you're still a member of order or faith) where it was "explained" in roleplay terms that included associating the career with the order/faith in question etc. E.G., I have a player whose PC wizard was an apprentice apothecary when he was "called/inducted" into Order of Light. He's switched to Apothecary career representing deepening the understanding of this career - which with its healing draught bonus is consistent with the healing aspect of Light magic. I wouldn't penalize a Sigmarite priest who went for Soldier etc.

As noted, doing this career change without the dedication bonus loses access to important career ability for spellcasters.

I wouldn't allow actions earned in the new career to be spells or blessings though. Dipping into other careers is not a way to pick up more spell/blessing action cards without having to pay non-career advance penalties.

Rob

dvang said:

I was not clear in my original post, I would expect the initial career to be completed in this regard before changing, otherwise the character has failed there initiation/appreticship.

But can you direct me to the RAW with page numbers etc where they lose there order card, and also that you cannot buy blessings/spells without an order card. I cant find it in the core set/WoM/SoF. It might might be in the guides as I dont have them or I could simply be blind.

Many Thanks Crimsonsun

It's not the RAW it's just a preference. The careers, istm, are set up to allow maximum freedom for GMs who like that sort of thing, and also offer some rigid and more formal guidelines for people who like to play that way.

For example, the underlying thrust of the section on Adventuring and the Colleges and Exeat Wizards in Winds of Magic seems to deliberately accommodate both types of game.

I know some games really go for the career as life description, eg, you are a bounty hunter, that's your job, you must do bounty hunter things until you get a new job. And some see a career as merely a catch-all term and rough guideline for what happens to interest the PC at that time in his development. And, of course, there's all the huge middle ground.

crimsonsun said:

I don't have my books with me to tell you exactly. I believe, IIRC, it is under the rules for purchasing actions cards in character creation. It says something about wizards may only purchase spells from their Order, and priests may only purchase blessings from their Faith.

Otherwise, you'd have Bright Wizards buying Grey spells and Sigmarites buying Shallyan blessings, for example.

Obviously, therefore, if you do not have the appropriate Order/Faith card you could not purchase a spell blessing. If you could, then you could have a dwarf trollslayer buying spells, or a ratcatcher buying blessings, etc. With just a short cross-class purchase for Invocation/Spellcraft skill, and they're off and running and casting spells/blessings. The Faith/Order cards are the limiters for purchasing spell.blessing action cards, and you only have access to those with an Order/Faith/Witchcraft slot. If you are in a career that does not have one of those slots, you may not purchase a spell/blessing.

dvang said:

The core book does say only choose spells from your Order/Cult. You do need to be a wizard or priest to buy and cast spells - an order/faith card is part of the package. However, the rules don't make any requirement on having an Order/Faith card socketed on your current character sheet.

A Grey wizard who transitions to Thief is still a member of the Grey College - he is still a wizard in the eyes of the Order and the law, just a thieving wizard. He still has the Grey Order card, he just cannot socket it. Same goes for a Sigmarite acolyte that transitions to Soldier. He is still a priest, just one currently focusing on his martial skills. I don't imagine characters in the Old World walking around with labels hovering over their heads indicating their current career - how bad would that be for Thieves and Charlatans!

Furthermore Wizards can learn spells outside their Order, as detailed in the WoM. They need is access to the right tomes and/or instruction, but it is possible - albeit a capital crime...

However, spells, blessings purchased while in a non-wizard/priest career would be non-career advances.

Fresnel said:

I don't have my books with me right now... are there such a thing as "non-career advances" for action cards? That's the solution I've decided to go with (not that the player in question is all that interested in Blessings), but is it actually RAW or a house rule?

Yeah that was the point i was getting at there no such thing as non career action cards..

Obviously I would not allow the purchase of spells to non wizards or blessings to non priests, but once they have an order card they are free to purchase spell/blessing actions.. and non wizard/priests can use these abilites via the use of non sealed scrolls as in WoM...

I guess its personal pereferance.. As for wizards buying spells out of there order well thats up to the gm, from previous editions there is nothing i like more than slowly corrupting my party towards chaos, necromancy or the forbidden but thats a roleplay thing and would obviously require the accumilation of grimors.. but parties tend to fight alot of fallen wizards so thats not as difficult as it first seems.

I think the original question needs to be taken on a case by case basis, because it really depends on what the players concept is to how is best to handle it as it as Gm.

Just my opinions anyhow Crimsonsun

RARodger said:

House rule - if I were GMing. Imo it just seems reasonable, given that Spells and Blessing are career specific things.

Players Guide pg 43, General Career Advances, Action Card

"Some action cards may have special requirements - for example, only wizards can acquire new spells, and even then, the wizard can only acquire spells from his particular College of Magic."

Obviously, per RAW, you must currently be in a Wizard or Priest career to purchase spells/blessings, and may only purchase those of the Order/Faith that you have.

A Grey wizard who transitions to Thief is still a member of the Grey College - he is still a wizard in the eyes of the Order and the law, just a thieving wizard

No, actually. He is a thief who is a former member of the Grey College. It's likely the College and/or witch hunters are hunting him. A thieving wizard is a wizard who trains and specializes in Skullduggery (as non-career purchases), or perhaps one that was a thief before becoming a wizard.

Same goes for a Sigmarite acolyte that transitions to Soldier. He is still a priest, just one currently focusing on his martial skills.

No again. The priest has given up his position in the priesthood to be a ranked soldier in an army.

What you are desiring to do is handled by non-career advances, NOT by a career transition.

Furthermore Wizards can learn spells outside their Order, as detailed in the WoM. They need is access to the right tomes and/or instruction, but it is possible - albeit a capital crime...

They also make it prohibitively expensive to follow this exception. It's a 4d spellcraft check with additional per rank of spell, as well as causing corruption when learning it, as well as a chance for corruption each time you cast that spell. It also says it is only allowed by GM permission. This does NOT mean that a non-wizard can learn spells, or change the fact that the PC must currently be in a Wizard career in order to learn a spell.

There are no similar exceptions allowed for priests to learn blessings from another faith (which makes sense).

I stand by what I've said, and backed it up with rules. In order to learn spells/blessings you must currently be in a wizard/priest career (or hedge witch, which has special exceptions), and can only learn spells/blessings from your chosen Order/Faith (barring GM approval for special exceptions on wizards and spells, as mentioned above).

dvang said:

There is a bit of a gap between "only wizards can acquire new spells" and "must currently be in a Wizard career," especially considering that the meat of this discussion is about if you are considered a "wizard" after you leave one of the college careers. You are free to interpret it this way, but it is by no means obvious.

Isn't this discussed in Winds of Magic?

dvang said:

Yeah, "obviously" is a strong word there. That a wizard is someone whose current and only current career is apprentice/wizard/whatever might be strongly implied, but to my knowledge it is not explicitly defined.

dvang said:

The point of our disagreement is the definition of wizard.

For you it is defined absolutely by being in a wizard career. The alternative view that College members can pursue second non-wizard careers, but still remain wizards and College members - you reject utterly. You also hold that a character's current career is discernable to observers - so they are thrown out of the College if they transition...

I always found this position absurd, but before WoM it was at least arguable as RAW... However, I point you to WoM p18 on Exeat Wizards, where your position is struck down.

dvang said:

Given that your fundamentalist position on careers is already undermined in RAW - assuming Priests also have similar career flexibility isn't a strench.

dvang said:

Gotta go with dvang on this one.

I see transition away from wizard/priests, and into standard careers, while keeping ability to purchase spells, as a gamey way of avoiding paying non-career advances for the skills/stats you'd like.

Going from gambler to smuggler, you're not a gambling smuggler, you're a smuggler who used to be a gambler and thus knows how to gamble. Knowing how to gamble and being a gambler is not the same.

Same goes for going from Acolyte to Thief, you're not a thieving wizard, you're now a thief who used to be a wizard and thus knows how to cast the spells he learned in that career.

If you want to train agility/skulldudgery/weaponskill/ whatever, use non-career advances, or stop being a wizard.

Situations may of course wary greatly, but I think to many are obsessed with maximizing, and paying 1 extra xp for a skill is not maximizing, and so they instead change career.

Would you allow a former Witch Hunter, in smuggler career, to arrest/burn hereticts? I would not, but I guess it depend on how you view the career system, and of course it also means allowing PC's to go through the same career as many times as they want.

Spivo said:

I disagree with this. If you have players who only enter careers to make Advance purchases cheaper then you're doing it wrong. Simple as that. Wrong. I understand that's strident and playing the system in a gamey way is, to a certain extent, an inevitable consequence of any system, but still I'm prepared to say it's just wrong. Therefore, if you're interpreting career constructs simply in order to thwart such gamey system-milking, then you're doing it wrong too.

Instead, your player needs to think about his PC's life and what direction he wants to go in, and to choose a career that reflects his current activity and interests. That doesn't mean he has to break all ic ties with his previous career and it doesn't mean he has to commit to a new, formal occupation, though he can, of course.

A witch hunter could be on the trail of a cult smuggling profane artefacts over the border. He can go and live with smugglers for a few months undercover. He would quite legitimately have access to Smuggler advances, which can be reflected by him taking the Smuggler career, and he can still be a witch hunter. The moment will come when he casts off his smuggling garb and declares, 'I'm a witch hunter and you're under arrest!'

Or, the witch hunter can become disillusioned by life in the Temple and go off to find himself. He can fall in with a band of villagers who survive by making the occasional trip across the border and bringing some brandy with them. It wouldn't make sense to pay duty on this if they didn't have to. He might still think of himself as a witch hunter. He might still be on the look out for cultists, but he can still use the Smuggler career template. Or, he could still be using his witch hunter template. It doesn't matter, because he's stil a witch hunter and he is still a smuggler. He can use either career and both over time. And he'd be doing that to reflect the events of the game and his role in it. There is no particular moment when he resigns his witch hunter commission or formally signs on as a smuggler.

I realise some GMs and players like to have very strong career delineation and strict ic correspondence between the activities of their PCs and their careers, and that way of playing has its merits, although personally I prefer a looser game with careers sometimes representing general interest and activity rather than always standing for a formal occupation. Either way of playing is ok, but I would strongly suggest, if you're only playing the latter way because you're concerned about PCs changing career as a sort of Advance bargain hunt then you're doing it wrong.

If you have a player who's running a witch hunter and wants to buy Skulduggery then there can be any number of good reasons to buy it out of career, but if a player wants to move to Smuggler simply to get it cheap, then I suggest the GM just says to his player, 'don't be an ass, that's not what the system is for.' rather than creating a paradigm wherein, say, a witch hunter on the trail of cultists must resign from the Temple and lose all relevant rank and privilege and sign on with the official smugglers guild, or something, to go under cover for a few months, to solve a problem which can be better addressed by a slap round the head and that special GM withering look. Coz you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

monkeylite said:

I think you took me a bit to literal, we're on the same thread on this one.

With roleplaying, and good argumentation (rather than, it would be c33wl if my wizard could fight as well) I let my players do anything. I allow them at creation to nit pick skills, if they want their char to have something not on the career sheet, like one player buying Balistics for his Agent.

My point was mainly concerning gamey players. Heck I'd allow a soldier to pick piety/Invocation/blessings, if I (and my player) had a good reason for it.

I do though advice people (GM's) to judge if the career change is due to wanting access to cheaper skills, or if it's for roleplaying purpose.

If you want to be really gamey, you can jump through careers for 0 xp as human, and pick skills/stats as you please. You don't get to keep the career skill, but the rules says nothing about limiting this career-jumping.

I should also note, that my oppinion came out because someone asked directly for the rules stating if you could do it or not, and when people move from "Oppinion as to why this should be allowed roleplaying-wise" and to "Show me the rules", my hairs starts standing.

Nothing frustrates me more, than players who try'n beat me as GM with rules, because to me it's not a fight to roleplay, it's about telling a story. And if a player "just" wants access to cheaper skills, he's not trying to tell a story, he's trying to maximize his char. But if he does it like:

A witch hunter could be on the trail of a cult smuggling profane artefacts over the border. He can go and live with smugglers for a few months undercover. He would quite legitimately have access to Smuggler advances, which can be reflected by him taking the Smuggler career, and he can still be a witch hunter. The moment will come when he casts off his smuggling garb and declares, 'I'm a witch hunter and you're under arrest!'

then you're working to tell a story.

So you have to seperate "Legitimizing" cheaper skills from roleplaying, and from "This would be nice to have", and as a GM it should be fairly clear which of the two the player is using.

Sure, I realised I was being too literal and taking your post out of a proper context, but it's a bit of a hot issue for me, generally. I didn't mean to aim that all at you. I find, a simple solution, in any case is to just not let a player leave his career until it is finished unless he has a very good reason. It doesn't make much sense, story-wise when stated that simply, but it's easy enough to accommodate in practice.

In any case, I'm spoiled atm, coz no one in my current group after 40 odd sessions has ever expressed a desire for any Advance that I've even had to think twice about and no one has even tried to leave a career before it's finished. Everything they've done has all made sense in the story. The only slightly dodgy thing we ended up doing was use the Grave Robber career for the dwarf, when really he's better described as a 'tomb raider.'