Hi everyone! At the moment the empire-verena build it's dominant. So i started to think at a deck that can stop it, and after a few test i found that list quite useful. Suggestions are always welcome!

3 Innovation
3 Warpstone Excavation
3 Contested Village
3 Crypt Ghouls
3 Dark Abyss
3 Easy Pickin's
3 Gobbo Loot
3 Lobber Crew
3 One Orc's Scrap...
3 Pillage
3 Stunty Smasha
3 Snotling Saboteurs
3 Raise Dead
2 Troll Vomit
3 Wight Lord
2 Countess Iseara
2 Grimgor Ironhide
3 Smash-Go-Boom!

#51 Cards

The goal it's simply to destroy every cards that enter play, focusing on developments. There are a few tricks like Gobbo Loot + Wight Lord + necromancy, Iseara + Lobber Crew or Stunty Smasha, Grimgor as development + One Orc's Scrap + Raise Dead, ecc.

What do you think about it?

I have a similar deck that does well against Empire. But, considering Empire has so many ways to manipulate your developments, why would you use One Orc's Scrap? Why have a support that tempts you to sac your devs when you desperately need them? I would get rid of OOS and replace them with Long Winter. Long Winter seems to be a must include in any deck in this new environment.

So I’ve only played one game with this deck but I liked the idea of it (and had been wanting to make something similar myself for a while). I will play with it some more and give a later report.

To me it felt slow and I’m not sure how you win (decking the opponent out) cause there is not enough power in the units to burn zones (especially in a development heavy environment.)

Dark Abyss seems odd to me unless the idea is you just destroy your enemy’s stuff until they run out of cards. It felt like this was too slow a playstyle in my one attempt.

Gobbo Loot felt expensive for what you get as you have very few units above a cost of two. I dawns on me that adding in Rip Dere ‘Eads Off combined with Grimgor or High Mountain Troll or Bloodthirster followed by an attack and then at the end after damage has been assigned dropping a Gobbo Loot on them is a pretty awesome play.

I’d agree with the comment on One Orc’s Scrap if the idea is to get Grimgor into the discard pile for a Raise Dead you can use Rip Dere ‘Eads Off, Stunty Smasha’s, or Smash Go Boom (if desperate).

Snotling Saboteurs are just too slow and expensive. 5 power to destroy something… I love their versatility (they look great on paper) and have tried to use them in decks many times but ultimately they don’t make the cut for my tastes.

My intitial suggestions.

Pull the Dark Abyss for Grimgors Camp (basically adds an extra power.)
Pull the One Orcs Scrap for Boar Pen (makes attacking zones easy which goes along with the next card.)
Pull the Snotling Saboteurs for High Mountain Troll (some attack power which you can get out either with the raise dead option or later in the game you can probably afford it straight up.)
Add some Rip Dere ‘Heads off (to play with Grimgor and the High Mountain Trolls.)

Will play with this deck a couple more times as is but that’s my first gut reactions.

Wraith428

I would drop:
-Innovation, because against empire (and new supports) you want to develop all zones ASAP, not only kingdom.

-Dark Abyss, it has no syngery in this deck

-Gobbo Loot, you have no units worth sacrificing for it

-One Orc's Scrap, new cycle killed this support...also sacrificiny developments while figthing verena...

-snotling saboteurs, compare them to Rodrik

-raise dead, without OOS you won't use it

-troll vomit, there are better ways to get rid off Friedrich/Wilhelm than killing all your stuff

-countess iseara, will get called back as soon as she hits the board

-grimgor, for you don't have OOS and raise dead

As said before without Long Winter you can't do anything about Verena.

Here's something I would try, it was initially an orc rush, but evolved due to Empire/Dwarf supremacy:

3 Long Winter
3 Warpstone Excavation
3 Choppa
3 Contested Village
3 Crooked Teef Goblins
3 Fungusbrew Goblin
3 Rip Dere 'Eads Off!
3 Spider Riders
3 Boar Pen
3 Clan Moulder's Elite
3 Foot of Gork
3 Lobber Crew
3 Night Goblins
3 Pillage
3 Stunty Smasha
3 Wight Lord
2 Smash-Go-Boom!

You've got a lot of cheap units to attack and also a lot of disruption, including 11 cards to destroy developments.

I don't want to play a rush with some removal, i'd like to play little more control. So according to your advices, i've edited the list to this one:

3 Long Winter
3 Warpstone Excavation
3 Contested Village
3 Rip Dere 'Eads Off!
3 Spider Riders
3 Boar Pen
3 Clan Moulder's Elite
3 Foot of Gork
3 Lobber Crew
3 Night Goblins
3 Pillage
3 Stunty Smasha
3 Grimgor's Camp
3 Raise Dead
3 Wight Lord
2 Grimgor Ironhide
2 High Mountain Troll
3 Smash-Go-Boom!

I decided to put in both grimor and troll because i think that each one, with Rip Dere 'Eads Off or Raise Dead, could make the difference and probably close the match when they enter play. The rest of the card are your suggestions, more control, no innovation and orc' scrap, with the new fricking dwarf and empire support could be useless.

I. Love. Fungusbrew Goblins.

qwertyuiop said:

I have to agree with that statement.

qwertyuiop said:

Why, exactly?

They are the way, next to Crooked Teef Goblins and Spider Riders , to play Boar Pen for 2 on the first turn.

I thought the rip their heads - grimgor combo did not work because grimgor (as a development) is allready in play when playing rip so its action is never triggered.... Raise Dead though is great

@Virgo: OOS is still usefull this cycle to make use of developments in burning zones;)

BigV said:

They cost one and benefit you anywhere your opponent chooses to place them.

After a few hours of playtesting against the most painful Verena-deck, here's the list modified:

3 Long Winter
3 Warpstone Excavation
3 Contested Village
3 Rip Dere 'Eads Off!
3 Spider Riders
3 Advanced Engineering
3 Clan Moulder's Elite
3 Lobber Crew
2 Night Goblins
3 Pillage
3 Stunty Smasha
3 Grimgor's Camp
2 Snotling Saboteurs
3 Raise Dead
3 Troll Vomit
2 Wight Lord
3 Grimgor Ironhide
3 Smash-Go-Boom!

#51 Cards

Even now, with more control and destroying cards, there is a quite huge gap between verena and this. Visit the haunted city and Hidden Grove are really strong, and if played togheter in early game, it's hard to win.

I really don't know how to modify it to stop Verena.

I'm playing something like this at the moment:

53 cards (can't decide what to take out)

3 Innovation
3 Long Winter
3 Warpstone Excavation
3 Choppa
3 Contested Village
3 Crooked Teef Goblins
3 Fungusbrew Goblin
3 Rip Dere 'Eads Off!
3 Spider Riders
3 Boar Pen
2 Chaos/Orc Alliance
3 Clan Moulder's Elite
3 Lobber Crew
2 Smash Der Beards
3 Stunty Smasha
3 Ungor Raiders
2 Troll Vomit
3 Bloodthirster
2 Smash-Go-Boom!

It can be fast what is important against most order decks at the moment. I'm not really trying to develop anything else besides battlefield against Verena as long as I have the chance to wreck his board, too when he's playing it. RIP can also be used as development removal when nothing else comes for using it. I try to use the Hidden Grove against the empire player. If he doesn't play with City Gates or something like that it's managable. I also try to play the Boar Pen as late as possible when I really need it to decide the game.

Warpstone excavation is becoming a bit iffy with 'visit the haunted city'. Sucks having to pillage your own card.

BigV said:

In your area. In others, it's not so much.

Cool deck idea, though.

And by "others" you mean your area? I think it's strong everywhere and besides dwarfes with heavy development use, there is not so much that can compete. I heard about some DE decks but they are way too slow at the start.

So, question, how does this deck pair up against other decks at this point (i.e. Dwarf+ DE)?

As long as your opponent doesn't play something like Ancestral Tomb, Ancient Longbeards, Nimble Spearmen or Dwarf Slaves it isn't much of a fight, so dwarfes have a good chance.

As long as your opponent doesn't get more than 1 development into play he doesn't have power for his units in his battlefield and he is also open for verena. If you can play an Infiltrate for 1 or 2 turns it's getting desastrous. Mining Tunnels, Order in Chaos loop with Infitrate or Long Winter is quite the game decider. If you hold back 1-2 resources and have either Long Winter, Will of the Electors or Demolition on Hand, your opponent can't damage you in his battlefield phase and you don't have to worry about any other damage cancel cards (i.e Valaya) that doesn't work in every case.

All said with the actual amount of cards. Destruction need more ways to get developments onto the board and that 4 cost Moorsleib building doesn't help much as it's getting removed for a much cheaper price. Another thing is support removal besides Pillage and Burn it Down (can also be used by Order) so that game deciding buildings doesn't stay on board for the whole time.

If you have to disclaim Warpstone Excavation as destruction player because of Visit the Haunted City their decks are getting even worse ...

So let's hope for the next BP

grille said:

Not just my area - spoke to a few other friends in other locales (both here in US and worldwide) and I'm not necessarily seeing it as the new hotness. Too many key cards you need to really get it working properly, from what I've seen of it. Not saying it's not a strong Tier 1 deck, it probably is but I'm not remotely convinced that it's "easily" the top deck. Not by a long-shot.

Intro: I'm an Empire player since the beginning (I play everything, but Empire and Dark Elf are my...secret love ).

Now: I'm hating Verena.

It's strong. Too strong: it's pretty fast, solid and doesn't need that effort to behave good. It just needs to reach turn 2 and that's it. In every BP there's something making it stronger than ever...

Try it out, seriously: I see a list (and all variations) win easily against any opponent.

I can see a bunch of bad matchups: Dark Elf Discard/Control, Orc Control/Orc Reanimator (just because it destroyes everything that hits the table and gets rid of supports and developements like anyone else does) and maybe Dwarves.

Any other pairing is "simple": Too simple.

I post an average list (I know most of you won't believe in what I'm sayin...I quit playin' for a while (I didn't leave the game, just concentrated on organized play ), started again and looked at this...

I laughed and said: "What? It can win that much..."

Changed my mind pretty fast.

Here it is my list (and it's not the strongest one...I don't copy a whole decklist).

UNITS 15

3x Free Company (triggers anytime, card advantage)

3x Rodrik's Riders (must)

3x Knights Panther (good finisher/card draw)

3x Pistoliers (finisher)

3x Wilhelm of the Osternacht (ooook!)

SUPPORTS 12

3x Warpstone Excavation (must)

3x Derricksburg Forge (must, card draw if you need it)

3x Mining Tunnels (ooook)

3x Shrine To Taal (pistoliers....)

TACTICS 21

3x Iron Discipline (protect the finisher)

3x Innovation (oook)

3x Manaan Take You! (nobody likes it, I do: it's a direct removal and pretty useful in the early game, when everyone tries to put the third developement in the KZ )

3x Judgement of Verena

3x Will of The Electors

3x Called Back (protect the finisher, counter combos, destroys reanimator, etc)

3x Long Winter

QUEST

3x Visit The Haunted City (I'm not playin' it right now, but it's a must)

TOT: 51

It's pretty much the same building we're testing against...It's an "auto-build", pretty difficult to play, but totally overpowered.

IMHO.

21 tactics while having 12 supports doesn't match my playstyle. Seems hard to play but still strong.

I play it different. As long as empire has such a good quest as Haunted City it's an auto include so I'll definitly take Grail Knights with me. Good starting hands allow to play Derricksburg Forge, Haunted City -> Militia/Huntsmen/Grail Knights for massive card draw in the second turn and give early access to the cheap tactics to set up a Verena (which can really throw back the enemy if played in the second turn).

Even if Verena is not an option wether it doesn't come to hand or you had to play too much Rodrik Raiders the deck can lock the game quite well as long as hidden grove is in play. Imagine how you can clear the battlefield out of developments each time with Long Winter, Will of the Electors, Demolition followed by Order in Chaos. One card that I don't want to miss is Infiltrate. I think it's one of the strongest tactics and it works against every deck. Even dwarfes cannot do that much if they don't draw cards and it works against Mining Tunnels and One Orcs Scrap in an animator deck. It's also good to deny card draw against a verena deck because it's getting more difficult for the opponent to develop his board when he's not drawing much cards. Adding Chain Lightning with the newest Battlepack further makes this deck save. If you manage to move a Warpstone into opponents battlefield you have a second turn of time to react to threats and while sitting on Haunted City you can move the strongest unit everytime when you need it.

2nd turn Hemmler is also a threat that a lot decks have to draw an early answer to or the game is finished quickly.

I would say that there is hope because of incoming mass unit removal like Plague Bomb or other targeted unit control that now does more damage for less resources but considdering empires great protection against such effects (Church of Sigmar, Iron Discipline) it will not be easy. Troll Vomit is the only thing that can really hurt empire at the moment I think.

Just to be clear: I don't say that my list is perfect or the like...I just say that Verena, in general (other competitive list based on that scheme) wins almost any game that plays.

Loses against Orc Reanimator, but more for targeted removal, support control, Grimgor and similar stuff than for mass removal (you'll never have more than 3-4 units in play together.

The fact is that, I suggest you to try a list like this just to understand what we mean while complaining about Verena's deck: 21 tactics seems odd...And should be in a game like this...But it's not! That's the point...

You'll be surprise for how strong and solid this deck is...

About changes:

- Hidden grove is destructive and will be an auto-include: I just tried to test different choices.

- You have to avoid too much situational stuff, because it's worst than startin' with a hand full of tactics: each turn you HAVE to:

a- play developement and draw with Mining Tunnels;

b- play at least 2 cards.

c- keep a bunch of resources, even 1 for multiple tasks (panther, called back, manaan, dev. removal)

You can do an active/effective turn just playin' this way. It seems mechanical, but it's not: choices are difficult. The pattern is the same, not the cards you need.

Every meta has its own "truth", I know, and that's what I like about Card Games in general (LCGs, I mean )...And I know that, often, the winner is the one that breaks in with an unexpected deck...

In my opinion, Orc Reanimator aside, DE is the way (if you wanna go destruction)...

Dwarves can do great against Verena for its "die/come back" mechanic (even if you need lots of resources to make it work) as well as High Elves (yeah, I'm not drunk... Tested an aggro version against Verena and won 2 times...It can be "luck"...But it's "really" aggressive and the point is that all the indirect damage goes to the capital, for the lack of units in Verena lists.

Something is changing with the new cycle (wood elves, removal as you said)...But right now, believe me, that "weird" list is the strongest thing that hit the game since the beginning.

maybe a stupid question, but what are animator or reanimator decks?

I think he means orc decks that are centered around getting big units like Grimgor, High Mountain Troll and Bloodthirster into discard pile. I played it shortly after One Orc's Scrap was released mostly together with Rip and Stunty Smasha and reviving them with Raise Dead.

It is a combo deck type and I was disturbed regularly with Order in Chaos and "destroy attacking unit" stuff but I would be interested in DB.Coopers decklist and how it differs from our understanding.

Orc Reanimator is just what you said, basically, Grille.

It's an Orc Control archetype with the addition of some "come back" stuff...It works pretty well, but it's "heavy"...And sometimes you can lose without even reaching a good set up (it's rare, but it happens).

I do prefer Basic Orc Control Deck (I used to play it a lot in the past tournament season and it did great...i don't know if it works anymore...I guess it can give some troubles to almost any deck, 'cause it...simply...destroys stuff).

I'd put in Iseara for Lobber Crew (a cost 3 unit removal each turn) and definitely play Grimgor (it's THE killer ).

I don't like the "rush" mechanic, so I started testin' Orc Control decks...Orc has never been my favourite faction, but has the "removals" I like (units reset, targeted destroy effects, sacrifice, developement control, support control).

Right now, with Orc Rush, is the only serious opponent for Verena decks.