Hi there,

I know there have been a bunch of threads on moritat assassins and power weapons, but this has come up between one of my fellow players and myself. Would a Moritat assassin be able to get the tearing feature twice (once from the bloody edge and once from the actual chain weapon)? He points to the fact that it combines the raw power of the chain weapon with the moritats skill and precision, thus the stacked tearing. While there are no rules explicitly saying yes or no, I'd like to get some feedback from the community.

In my opinion i'd say no it doesn't and treat it like anything else thats redundant in the DH universe, such as a good craftsmanship stub revolver, It's not any more reliable than the common model, it's just a really well made weapon.

Thanks a bunch!!!

Ok, I'm a powergamer and a rules lawyer, and even I wouldn't try to make that argument. As far as I know, the only weapon quality that can be stacked is Felling in Deathwatch.

This sort of thing is neither rules as written nor rules as intended, and your friend should be informed as such.

Then your munch-fu is weak.

flesh renDer
Prerequisites: Adeptus Astartes
The Battle-Brother has a taste for the massive damage that
can be inflicted with chain weapons and other melee weapons
that rip apart the flesh of their enemies. When inflicting
Damage with a melee weapon that has the Tearing quality,
the character rolls a single additional die for Damage and
picks the highest roll. For weapons that inflict several dice
worth of Damage, only a single additional die is rolled.
exaMple
Averrus, a Deathwatch Assault Marine, attacks a Tyranid
Hormagaunt with his chainsword. Because Averrus’ chainsword
has the Tearing Quality, he benefits from his Flesh Render Talent.
Averrus rolls 3d10 for Damage (getting a 9, 2, and 5 on the dice)
and selects the best result (9)

This sounds like they Moriat thing should work too.

As Daisuke said.

Personally, I don't view chain weapons as qualifying for the Moritats tearing ability, as they are not truly bladed weapons in the intended sense.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Not knowing more about that Moritats ability, I agree with this statement. But because I would like to know more, what book is it in?

Elohiem_Militant said:

Inquisitors Handbook has the Moritat package.

Wow, after reading the entry there is no question in my mind, they do not even apply to each other.

The reaping says, "while using a sword or other similarly edged weapon," And the "Chain weapon description" says that they have "fast-moving chains of serrated metallic teeth running across what would normally be the weapon's bladed edge," which would make any chain weapon not viable. Now power weapons on the other hand would still be up for debate.

Well, Chainswords are swords, and those serrated metallic teeth have an edge. And most notably, all Chain weapons have the Tearing quality by default. Then we have Deathwatch which has a talent specifically for that, although it is true that the Marines get a lot of special mechanics and unique rules that don't apply to normal people.

In the end I could see it working. It does taste a little munchkinny, but the player has a point by remarking that one instance of Tearing would apply to the weapon whilst another would apply to the character. Else you would be left with the weird situation that, in the hands of a Moritat, there would be little difference between using a Chainsword or a simple Mono Sword. I don't think it would be too OP, though if you do believe so you could always houserule stuff like a stacked instance of Tearing only adding a flat +1 to total damage or something like that? This would still make it better whilst avoiding the higher chance to achieve extremely high results on the dice.

Wow I'm retarded. I accidently read "The Reaping" Talent in the Reaper alternate career path. Sorry for the mix up.

But my Opinion still stands as "the Bloody edge" trait says: "the moritat disdain many modern weapons as crude and spiritually unfulfilling, preferring instead the sacred edge of the blade. As a result, they must pass a Hard (-20) willpower test to use any weapon lacking an "edge" in combat (thrown blades, knives and arrows are fine) unless they obviously have no chance of harming their enemy otherwise."

So I don't think they would even want to use a chainsword unless they wouldn't have any chance of harming the enemy otherwise. They start off with a mono sword which really limits the number of scenarios where they would consider a chainsword. And even then the chainsword wouldn't qualify for the redundent tearing trait.

Other then the obvious reason they wouldn't get the bonus, Redundent weapon special qualities don't stack. The only exception to this is the reliable and unreliable qualities, where if they both exist on a weapon, cancel eachother out according to the errata.

Some times adding stuff just doesn't do anything: Good quality revolver for example.

And saying that a chainsword is a similarly edged weapon to a sword is like saying my butter knife and my chain saw are the same.

Elohiem_Militant said:

I would definitively have that character test WP for using a Chainsword, then (and potentially incur further penalties due to gaining a bad reputation amongst his fellow Moritat) - but if he passes, why would the talent not apply to the weapon? This should be explained, if only to to make it easier to "sell" it to the player in question.

One possible explanation I could think of might be that the Talent is basically a refined fighting technique concerning how the character strikes with the weapon, and a Chainsword is simply wielded a bit differently than a normal Sword - hacking its "edge" onto an enemy, pushing it down to have its teeth dig into the body and then ripping it out again, rather than just hacking and withdrawing it again to strike anew.

Elohiem_Militant said:

Actually, a weapon can actually have multiple instances of Felling, Proven, etc ... I could perfectly imagine a future official supplement offering a weapon that has a quality like "Tearing (2)" because its cause for the Tearing effect is somehow superior. And technically, in this case the 2nd Tearing would not come from the weapon itself but the character - it's essentially a different thing that just happens to have the same results.

Elohiem_Militant said:

Well, if you would stick lots of small butterknives to a rotating chain ...

I think you are forgetting something rather important, Lynata. Imperial assassins do not typically use chainswords, and if you know of any works that do depict them using such weapons please point me in their direction. This is for one very simple reason:

The darn things are rather loud for their chosen line of work.

I more see the Bloody Edge ability as a reason why a Moritat would use melee weapons other than some manner of chain blade. Like say, the Monoswords they start with. Also, as I was alluding to before:

Weapon qualities that stack with themselves are the exception, not the rule.

But as always, these are my thoughts and they are shaped by my perspectives. I always think about the sorts of weapons, equipment, and general skills and abilities I want my character to have then build around that. But, I don't just optimize for optimization's sake.

Whilst the vast majority of them would surely prefer to approach their target unseen and unheard, not all Assassins kill silently. I can perfectly imagine instances where (depending on the individual or his group's style and/or any wishes from the client) the actual killing would be carried out with a particularly impressive (read: loud, bloody and messy) display of martial prowess simply because many acts of assassinations do not only serve as simple removal of one or more unwanted individuals but also are a show of force, there to intimidate other enemies and their lackeys. And in the end, the difference between loud screams and a roaring chainsword that would be activated mere seconds earlier are negligible.

And if you really want to exploit all options you could even talk about attaching a stummer to the weapon, and/or trying to have a (near-)silent chainsword custom-built for you (which would certainly be possible, tech-wise).

That said, I did point out that I fully support the restrictions placed upon Moritat Reapers as per the book.

Daisuke said:

Lynata said:

**my computer hates the text box on fantasy flight, appologies in advance**

I avoided this for this in my last post for these reasons. I assumed they where the sneaky type but I'm sure there are ways to make chainswords sneaky...

Anyway, if you agree they should use a WP to use a Chainsword then you accept that it is a modern weapon that they wouldn't have their training in and therefore their ability wouldn't apply. Unless you assert that the chainsword and the sword are similar in technique.

And this is where I again would argue that they require different talents, and chainsword fluff expresses that chainsword fighting is very different from normal swordplay (I.e. Caiphus Cain books ect.) Because the whirling blades of chainswords skip and what not when they hit something hard. The technique and style of fighting would be different in that it would stress making sure you don't hit your self with a whirling chainblade and redirecting force when the blades skip. Much like a jedi would have to have care that he doesn't hit him self and what not.

from france

ooooooookay

first yes a assassin is a tool weilding a tool for killing.

it s the way you want the tool to be use.

discreet removal.. oh god emperor he die hit by a car .....

theatrical.... oh god emperor the chief senator has been decapited and the killer had writen xenos consort with his blood.........

you can have smell, taste sound in plus of the visual effect if you want.

so chainsword are noisy ? and ? in some situation that can be useful.

for me the problem is not here nor it is in the "modern aspect" of the weapons. a mono weapon is by definition far from being primitive.so that that s not the problem. more over the las errata says "every edge weapons" can be monoed althougth i have doubt for arrows unless use as improvised weapon in close combat.

and the is the problem moritat are based on the tabletop games so the weapon that he can use are mono/ primitive/power. chainsword are none of this kind. so no a moritat can't use it.

other death cult assassin could maybe but not them.

you could said but the teef of the blade can be mono....... and the answer is no! read again the rules for monoing weapon it require a certain lenght of blade ( due to that i still have doubt about the arrows) . a teef from a chains word is simply not long enough.

so no mono chainsword so no use for a moritat.

anyway dont like moritat or the metlican gunslinger quick bonus but too limited.

you want your cup or recaff with poisons or not?

Definitively agreed about the no Mono on Chainswords, but that's not what the thread is about. That said, I actually think it would be neat to have mono-edged arrows - and I don't really like the wording of the RAW concerning where the quality could be applied to. I think we all agree it was done for balancing reasons, but would it not have been smarter to rule that chain weapons would already be mono'ed by default instead of coming up with this "blade length" excuse? When would a blade be long enough?

Also, somebody totally destroyed my post up there.

The missing parts basically just were about what the 8 spider pointed out - "not all assassins kill silently" (just more elaborate and explained in several sentences).

It says they will use edged weapons unless there is no other choices, chainswords are edged weapons (hence the rending damage).

from france

"It says they will use edged weapons unless there is no other choices, chainswords are edged weapons (hence the rending damage)."

no way! the rending qualities can com from other elements not only the fact there is a edge.

no way !! 2 hcains weapons contains? surprises surprises? chains. ok this is dh and unfortunately i only have rt in hand but between the two games it hasn't changed chain are chain.

the only mention of edge here is to represent side and not a edge proprely . p129 example the chain axe. in "into the storm" you wil find a chainsword without the protectin element in order to do more damage. but it s still have a chains and not a edge.

oh and again read the monoed rules it can't apply to a chain.

so no chainweapon for the moritat.

the 8 spider said:

Actually, if you look at pictures and models of Chainswords and Chain-Axes, you can see that they contain a great many individual blades (each of which is a cutting edge in its own right), which are mounted upon a chain.

The Mono upgrade cannot be applied to Chain Weapons because they're not primitive weapons and because, technically speaking, every single blade within a Chain Weapon is already mono-edged.

from france

ok but it is a colection of small blade and not a blade of any real lenght like the blade of a knife. can't remenber where did you see the that the teef are already mono but i trust you on that.

any way for me beacause a chainsword is not made of a continued length but a collection of small one it can be use by a moritat. by other assasin maybe.

by the way rembeber that a hammer can be mono but is not made of a blade so i dont think that a moritat can use a monoed hammer.

hey i like the idea of a death cult that use a hammer, the emperor symbolique weapons.

from france

short post beaucause the edit button disapear. a good precision is p 129 in the rt core book ligne 3 to 5

" they come in a variety of styles, but all feauture fast moving chains with serrated metalic teeth runing across what would normally be a weapon's blade edge " i think this is the most important part. it clearly say that chainsword are not blade weapon.

the 8 spider said:

Nowhere in that quote does it say it's not a edged weapon.

from france

are you serious?"what would normally be a weapon's blade edge" it means no edge blade...........

okay let s agree we disagree. have it your way. for me the moritat shouldn't use one of course unless it is the onty weapons in a empty rooms.

by the way the moritat and their special training specify witch can of weapons they have acces to and no cahins weapons is mentioned.

It is referring to a location on the weapon being where the open end of the chainsaw is. The chain itself is composed of hundreds of sharp pieces. Where a normal sword would have a single seamless blade, the chainsword has hundreds of tiny, sharp blades whizzing by at high speed.

from france

well you answer "Where a normal sword would have a single seamless blade, the chainsword has hundreds of tiny, sharp blades whizzing by at high speed." is a confimation of my answer. tniy sharpes blades are not a single seamless blade.

again it s not well suited for a moritat any other assassin maybe .

i know i repeating my self here i already talk about edge /side and edge/ cutting

Or, to illustrate:

Yes, it is not a single blade, but what should be the problem of mono'ing each tooth individually? A blade is a blade, regardless of size.

I too seem to recall that, as has been pointed out, chainswords are simply considered to be mono'ed by default - but imho this could have been mentioned in the books, as it makes a lot of sense.