...about the initial chapters in the main rule book.

I do feel that they don't offer a hugely varied character base, which was greatly improved in RoB.

But for the largest richest chapters which are still limited to the codex regulations of ground troops to be the same size as other chapters. Take the Ultramarines for example, they have an entire empire bankrolling them. And a huge pool of manpower to draw from if they need to. There's only so much vehicle crew and support marines that it's worth having.

Instead of being jsut a bit more discrimanting about their recruits, why not send entire companies worth of troops to be seconded to the deathwatch. Let them get some experience and you can have them trickly back in if you need the man power, like they would have done after Hive Fleet Kraken.

So maybe most of the DW you'll see are Ultramarine or Blood Angels or even Imperial Fists.

I can't really see the Ultramarines horrifically abusing the '1000 Astartes' Chapter limit like that, somehow. Whereas Chapters like the Templars and Wolves don't care enough about the Codex and the headcount limit to bother obfuscating their numbers in such a way.

Siranui said:

Yeah, templars don't care at all, and the death world chapters, SW, Salamanders aren't as likely to have as THAT many additional candidates (and, as you say, SW aren't even codex).

As for Ultramarines, it's only abuse if they see it as abuse. It's a service to the Emperor after all, and if it means that you have additional UM's out there so much the better.

Face Eater said:

That's what the Astral Claws thought...

You beat me to that...

One thing that I've always found odd about GW is that they don't show support for any SM Chapter outside the big 4: Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, and Space Wolves. Black Templars got the push because they're a bit more of an oddity than the others and people loved the Oath mechanincs and a hand-to hand chapter that was different than Blood Angels and Space Wolves. But there's no love for 5 of the Primogenitor Chapters, each of which has their own unique feel. Ideally, the concept they had for 3rd edition Codexes would be awesome: one main SM Codex that focuses on Ultramarines and then one booklet for each Primogenitor Chapter that has fluff lore and details divergence from the Codex Astartes.

Runescryer said:

I'm sure they'll get around to it in some way. I suspect the Badab War books are the way forward on this point: a unified systems for all Chapters with some fluff background suggesting a tactical emphasis and some unique characters.

Face Eater said:

According to Lexicanum, which is mostly old deathwatch fluff as far as I can tell (and no one has gone in to correct it) it indicates that most of the marines in the DW are in fact Ultramarines.

I'd honestly like to see a little more about some of the other chapters, but it is not terribly suprising to me from an author/business standpoint. A lot of companies that manage multiple factions of armies or what have you will only focus on a select, popular, few. Look out how they treat the guard, they splatter some fluff across dozens, but really only talk about a small handful. The main group of chapters that get a ton of stuff are the ones that are the most popular. Compaines also have little motivation to make a larger number of choices for users because that increases the cost of goods to make your product as you splinter your fan base across all those choices.

or those few very popular chapters are popular couse of number of available fluff ? U know more about them, u see them more often, u read about them and those few chapters on podium become more familiar and liked ? Look at Blood Ravens (no matter how much i dislike "unknown primarch" and that chapter) 2 computer games, some weak fluff and they become more popular than iron hands or white scars.

As of chapters chosen to be represented in DW corebook, more or less templates for DIY rule.

Charmander said:

Entry edited by Matt Ward?

Alex

ak-73 said:

- with all of the other Ultramarine love that exists I just took the line to be accurate

Face Eater said:

Except that their Primarch wrote the Codex. Everything about the Ultramarines is STRICT codex. Why would the Deathwatch be an exception when Guilliman said "1000 Marines. No more".

Because unless you want to say that the Ultramarine Chapter itself is a blatant violator, the Chapter/Company structure does not work. If there are nine companies that at full strength at 10 10 Marine squads, then that's 900 Marines, just to start. Now each Company has a Captain, Chaplain, and Apothecary. On top of that, each Company maintains enough Rhinos to transport the entire Company. Assuming one Marine per Rhino, as in driver, that immediately puts the tally at 1,017.

Standard Marines: 900 (This includes the Veterans of the 1st Company)

Company Command: 27 (Captain, Chaplain, Apothecary per Company)

Rhino Crew: 90 (1 Rhino per ten Marine Squad)

This count doesn't include the Librarium, the Reclusiam, the Chapter Command, the Scout Company (and their Command), the Techmarines. It also doesn't include the Land Raider/Predator crew, the Dreadnoughts, not to mention any potential standing crew on the fleet.

I will however agree that the Ultramarines would not push their numbers then try to pass it off as "well, we didn't think there was anything wrong..." They would keep their numbers at the nominal operational level whenever possible. I also doubt that the Chapter keeps any of it's number on the Chapter Roll when it sends them to serve the Deathwatch. It strikes me as foolish at best to pretend a Battle Brother is present when he's not at the Chapter's call.

Data007 said:

That assumes that Rhino crew are not drawn from elsewhere in the Chapter, such as one of the Reserve Companies. It also doesn't account for the fact that few Chapters are ever at exactly perfect operational strength - most will be at slightly less than 1,000 marines due to casualties, with the Battle Companies kept at closest to nominal strength.

Personally, I wouldn't say that the "Chapter/Company structure does not work ", but rather that it isn't the whole picture. We don't, afterall, have the text of the Codex Astartes to inform us, but rather much more succinct explanations present in rulebooks and codices.

Charmander said:

Not terribly surprising, at least if they include Ultramarine's successors in that number. Ultramarines have for a long time said to be the single largest source of gene seed, and most chapters come from their line. Makes sense when they were the largest legion, and many of the other gene seeds are a bit iffy for various reasons. Space Wolves have never had more than about 3 documented successors and should have really been denounced as mutants a long time ago. Blood Angels have quite a few but are flawed, so why there might be concerns about using their seed is obvious. Dark Angels have several successors and stable gene seed, but I think I remember they are viewed suspiciously so have some pushing to restrict how many chapters are founded from their line. Raven Guard and Salamanders both have slightly funky gene seed and were decimated during the Horus Heresy. Iron Hands are... well, almost not Space Marines, the deviant freaks that they are. That leaves the White Scars and the Imperial Fists. I think the Fists are meant to be one of the more popular lines, as even though they are missing certain abilities they are otherwise stable, but then they were also in a much worse shape after their tantrum after the Siege of Terra, so had less to go around. White Scars? Dunno at all, but then not much has been said about them except that they are Mongol Bikers.

On the numbers of Space Marines it used to be that the drivers of vehicles either came from the squads themselves, or were drawn from the Reserve Companies. Now I think this is changed slightly and the suggestion is that iot might be that a Chapter is 1000 Marines in the fighting squads (so drivers would be extra), but whichever one is the case, the Ultramarines are not in violation. And the Company specialists (Captain, Apothecary and Chaplain) were always excluded from the calculation of 1000.

Also, I think part of the issue is that the Deathwatch wouldn't just accept a whole company of Marines on secondment. They usually operate in small groups, so a formation like that is notterribly useful, and they only want a special few who have certain skills and talents that make them ideal for the role.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Actually, that is the running assumption. If you happen to have a copy of the 3rd Edition Codex, it had two things in it. One is the picture depicting the entire Ultramarines Chapter at full strength. This included a full set of Reserve Companies and each and every squad's attendant Rhino. Also, there's a page that lists the full strength of, IIRC, the 2nd Ultramarine Battle Company. This included Rhinos.

It's not as though I'm outright saying that Marine Chapters were never limited to any sort of maximum number. In all likelihood they are. However, the structure as laid out in the Codex Astartes, at least as it's delivered to us via the GW Codicies, is a full Chapter that by it's own listing, cannot exist at under 1,000 Marines, at full strength. As such, it's much more likely that the statement that is widely assumed to be "No Chapter May Exceed One Thousand Battle Brothers" actually reads "No Chapter May Exceed One Thousand Fighting Men." The difference is that 'Fighting Men' doesn't include vehicle crew, the three command branches, or the Apothecarium or Techmarines. 'Fighting Men' is restricted to those Brothers who go to combat as members of each Company, whilst not covering the Brother Marines who make it such that the Chapter can prosecute war,

The reserve companies etc all have Rhinos in their establishment, but that doesn't mean they are actually expected to be able to field them all in a useful manner. Remember the reserve companies are exactly that, a reserve. Their main role is to fill the gaps in the Battle Companies which losses create, provide manpower for support roles (in the older fluff this certainly included vehicle crews, and roles such as Land Speeder crew. Yup, the Land Speeder support your yellow shoulder trim Ultrmarine's 2nd company has should have lovely pink shoulder trim) and to provide extra manpower when a single battle company is not enough. It is a rare thing indeed when a Reserve Company goes to war as a distinct formation (they would be hideously unbalanced as a force, for one).

Face Eater said:

People who wrote the rulebook don't bend them, as a rule.

I'm personally a fan of the 1000 being limited to the line infantry, and excluding vehicle/starship crew et al. YMMV.

Siranui said:

Wel the current Chapter Master didn't but I would say that they are honestly trying to interpret it in the correct spirit, not least of which because there are specifically an number of other chapters doing the same. Which doesn't rule anything out as DW wasn't around when RG wrote it.

That's my interpretation myself.