Data007 said:

"Sisters of Battle - what do they wear under that armor?". Or, for those of alternate persuasion "Space Marines - big, brawny and beautiful".

PixelLibFront said:

Crew served weapons often goes through much more ammunition than a personal weapon in a platoon.

Indeed.

"These [heavy weapon] teams are tasked with providing sustained and accurate fire from the most powerful hand held weapons used in the Imperial Guard to lighter platoons as they advance. [...] These groups will advance with the rest of the column, laying down devastating arcs of fire in order to suppress enemy infantry formations that might otherwise harass the vanguard. They are also trained to spot and neutralize light scout vehicles."

The big advantage of lasguns is that they can be recharged by common power sources. Usually these will be specially provided generators at the base, but from what the description sounds like you could easily abuse even a common home wall socket to recharge them. Heck, you can actually place them in sunlight or throw them into a fire. I doubt anyone with a las weapon will ever have problems reloading his weapon.

That said, there's still a difference between heavy bolter and boltgun ammunition, and the latter is used extremely sparingly amongst the Guard (and there only for high-ranking officers or Commissars, which indicates more of a formal function rather than actual combat), which would mean they won't stockpile as much ammunition for them.

PrimarchX said:

Thats true for most west armies, no arguement here. I wonder however about conscript armies that uses, say the AKM that goes from safe to Automatic then repetition fire. I don't doubt that individual weapon ammo consumption would rise drastically, that is the reason the Americians change the M16 to a burst fire weapon instead of full auto after all.

On the other hand maybe we are all over thinking the logistics of a game that deals with demons, superhumans and the God-Emperor.

Or maybe not.

PixelLibFront said:

Yeah, I've read about that change... Going by the books, Calixian Guard regiments seem to use a lasgun (Mars MkIII) which has been limited to single shots. One solid projectile rifle (Alcher MkIV) that seems to be popular with Calixian PDFs, however, is actually incapable of burst fire and can only do full-auto. The reason for that was that less trained troops might be overwhelmed by a more complex setting.

PrimarchX said:

Nah. That's looser thinking. If you're down to achieving your goals with a pointy stick... stabbing someone with it is '6'. It's certainly not 'improvising' anything. Any idiot can use what he has to hand to hit someone. Using it as a tool in some other manner is '5'.

Ooh lots of really interesting points raised. :¬D

First off this 'Astartes bolter' issue is a product of BI making a mess of the bolt gun rules in general. FFG have had a jolly good stab at fixing them for sure.

However, we're now into trying to figure out a justification of how to resupply marines 'in the field'.

Hurdle 1 - Gamism

As GM, is limited ammo a mechanism you want to use in your game?

If 'no', don't worry about it - assume the marines are carrying all they need and steam on with the fun!

If 'yes', we need to look at the situation, factors and make a judgement on how to handle things. Personally i think any combat-focussed game should bring in the concerns of logistics and supply but that's just me...

Hurdle 2 - Simulation

OK so, what are the faactors at play here?

1. Marines in general are masters of war. They have complete command of logistics concerns including consumables supply.

2. Deathwatch are the uber-elites of the Space Marine world. Combat veterans so experienced that they have been hand-picked to join the Deathwatch.

3. Deathwatch marines are in the service of the Inquisition. They are exceptionally high status and deployed only when the situation is dire. As the agents of an Inquisitor, backed up by their Astartes training they have access to pretty much everything they need.

4. Most missions will likely be short duration combat assaults (judging by what i read on these fora - although i personally take a very different view of their primary activities).

SO...

These marines will ensure for themselves that they operationally deploy with enough supplies, including ammunition, for the expected mission engagement.

They will have a central store in the logisitical fall-back zone, and will carry on them enough ammo to meet the expected opposition (plus about +50% !!)

Thier skill, training, discipline and experience will mean that they economy of kill-ratio, expending minimum ammunition for maximum kills. Therefore they are unlikely to run out.

On extended missions, where ammo supply becomes an issue, they will 'buddy up' and share supplies, and eventually where possible fall back to their supply base to resupply.

Where, ammunition cannot be resupplied, they will strap up the guns and break out the combat blades, until;

a) they can resupply

b) they can acquire new weapons that have ammo in them

c) they can extract to resupply

Frankly a Deathwatch Marine squad that allows itself to run out of ammo is an amateur outfit not worthy to wear the pauldrons. Tactical command should have assessed that posibility and withdrawn from any assault to prevent this.

If situationally cut off from supply, its really not an issue as a MARINE IS A WEAPON in and of himself. His wargear is sacred and highly valued but he does not rely upon it, and can make use of any weapon available to him, including his fists.

Remember they 'know no fear' but they are not fools. Out of ammo, and facing a horde? What is the tactical and strategic situation here?

Do we need to stand and die?

If so, the marine will whip out his combat blade and stand his ground to the death.

If not, he'll withdraw to resupply and reinvogorate his combat capacity.

A few related points i'd like to comment on;

The Departmento Munitorum won't involve themselves in supplying the Astartes. They are focussed on raising, training and supplying the Imperial Guard and Imperial Fleet from the planetary tithe system. They certainly won't maintain 'Astartes - grade' supplies on every worl on the off-chance that the Space Marines might turn up.

Resupply for Astartes-grade gear will not be found from the Adeptus Terra. It may be found on a Forge World that supplies the Adeptus Astartes however.

The point made about Marines not using non-santined gear or supplies for fear of dishonouring their wargear is very important. A marine's gear is a sacredcharge for him, linking him directly to the ancestry of his chapter. A marine likely uses the same gear throughout his life. He will have inherited it from a predeseccor and will expect to pass it on to a successor upon his death. He sees himself as a custodian only and will not allow his boltgun to be 'polluted' by ammunition he is unsure of. Probably...

Roleplaying a marine means thinking like one. Wasting ammunition is a sin. However, running out isn't if every bolt has been used in the destruction of an enemy of Humanity. All marines carry a close combat back-up for just those occasions when there just aren't enough bolt shells!!

Luddite said:

Not anymore, actually. At least in this RPG.

(disregard the icon on their chestplates, that's just for show)

Lynata said:

They're still 'part' of the Inquisition even if they don't have to answer to an Inquisitors beck and call. They still get to say "By order of the Inquisition" and take stuff from people. The pact in the book makes them more or less equals as opposed to making the PCs continue to be gruntlings of the Inquisitor.

I do recall the book flat out stating they are an independent Chapter (which is also new) and not a part of the =][=. I'll re-read that part to make sure.

I'm currently running Final Sanction and am planning to follow that into Oblivion's Edge and mix in Extraction. This will be a long stretch of anyone's ammo.

I would expect there to ba a small amount of basic Astartes ammo in any PDF stores for such a situation. This should be easily enough for a Kill Team as it may be expected that a company of Astartes may need to stock up in similar circumstances. So I'm planning on there being a bio locked store with bolt shells etc.

I would also imagine that there could be a secure store of ammo in their Drop Pod.

Siranui said:

Get your own definition and stopped spamming mine, okay?

Lynata said:

They are independent, as in not under the direct command of the Inquisition, but they are allied and work closely together to fight the same threat.

There is at least one Inquisitor present on Erioch at all times and he must be present in the big council meetings.

I've just read it now...page 305, right? In the end.

Now, Space Marines have complitly lost any logic they could have. Any.

First, Deathwatch is a Chapter? 1000 warriors for the entire galaxy!?

Second, Deathwatch is usefull because it's a sure ally to call, because standard Chapters are random-helpers.

Now, if Deathwatch doesn't respond to Inquisitors call, in the end, it's like the Imperium must survive without Deathwatcht.

And now, I think that Imperium hasn't need of Deathwatch or Adeptus Astartes.

[i'm sorry for bad english]

Completely agree with Luddite. Ammunition should only be an issue in rare situations, when the completely unexpected happens... like in Final Sanction. Otherwise soldiers take what they need, and don't deliberately carry tiny amounts of ammunition as some kind of deliberate attempt to cripple themselves.

PrimarchX said:

Way to be over-aggressive about a bit of banter. I do have my own definition. It's the difference between a decent soldier with promotion prospects, and a dumb grunt: Give 'em a knife and tell them to improvise a victory, and the dumb grunt simply thinks of stabbing someone with it...

Siranui said:

And the overly ambitious soldier finds his own promotion prospect in stabbing the guy telling him to improvise victory with a knife!

Siranui said:

Hey, you crapped on my post twice. I had nothing to do with it. I'm just telling you I don't appreciate it.

Tattoedbikerdude said:

I stuck the Astartes Ammo for FS in the Imperial Stores- seemed to fit better than the local PDF (whcih can be anything ranging from men with pointy sticks to elite shock troops) keeping crates around, and gave the team a good reason to liberate it rather than going right for the big bad guy.

Something doesn't fit right about the Astartes just storing ammo on worlds they don't have an active representation on, not sure why, and it's certainly not game changing, but the theme just feels 'off' to me on that one. 2 cents, grain of salt and all that tho.

Charmander said:

I agree. Whereas I support the possibility that many navy vessels might have a 'in case of Astartes, open this room' kinda thing going on, I don't see it viable on a planetary basis. 1000 Chapters and over a million planets means that most of it is going to sit there gathering dust for a few thousand years. And I don't like firing 3000 year old explosive rockets!

Siranui said:

Also as likely that some-one has nicked and sold it by then. What with regeme changes etc.

OTH prognostication is fact in the Imperium and all it takes is an Inquisitor with a seer to Deus Ex machina it up.

Plus, it doesn't really make sense to have a small Astartes weapon cache. If Astartes are going to turn up, then they're expected to turn up in company-sized numbers. So either the logistics will be on hand to support that (unlikely!), or not. Astartes aren't commonly known for deploying in 5-man teams and the Deathwatch are supposed to be secretive. So the idea of mini weapons dumps to supply tiny teams seems decidedly odd.

Siranui said:

But Deathwatch are different from Astartes and they do show up in small numbers. I could see Imperial and Hive worlds certainly having prepositioned Deathwatch caches on them placed by the Inquisition. Any of those worlds could be effected by Enslavers or invaded by Orks or something else that would prompt a Deathwatch response. Because Deathwatch operate in small teams means they have even more need for such stocks on hand if they can arrange it than a regular Astartes landing force.

Would there be such caches on Frontier, Feudal or Feral worlds? Very unlikely unless there was a Watch Station there or it was historically some sort of key system that would likely see Deathwatch action.

Okay. I'm done now.

PrimarchX said:

I do like the idea of some small hidden Inquisitorial caches- and it's easy to turn it into an easy to access ammo dump if ammo's not a big deal in that mission, or if ammo IS a big deal for the mission you can easily make it an encounter in and of itself, make it so that the ammo has in fact been stolen and sold off, make it so that it's decades (or centuries) old and might not work anymore. Like a mini-watch station without the station.

Inquisition caches are for the Inquisition. And an Ork invasion is chiefly something for the Guard to deal with.

I find the idea irritating that the Deathwatch - originally supposed to be small elite Kill-Teams dealing with exceptionally dangerous xeno threats whilst they can still be contained by surgical application of concentrated force - is suddenly supposed to replace the Astartes and the Guard. That said, given that they're now supposed to fight Chaos as well and have been given their own fleets of warships and Chapter independence etc ... meh.

PrimarchX said:

I don't disagree that it's feasible on larger worlds, in rare circumstance (ie: The the DM fancies it), but I'd also expect it to be rare, and perhaps limited to situations where the Ordo Xenos foresaw Deathwatch involvement being inevitable. Given the size of the Imperium and the microscopic size of the Ordo Xenos (and DW), sheer numbers dictate that it's not going to happen much.

After all: Even with 'only' a million inhabited planets... generously 500 active kill-teams... each doing perhaps 6 operations per year... half of which are on Imperial planets (rather than hostile ones, vessels, deep space or uninhabited) that ammo is on average going to sit there 650 years! Probably not great as regards 'best before' dates!

The Occam's razor solution though really does seem to be 'carry more than 3 spare full clips, duh!' If you were going into combat as a super-strong soldier, complete with an exo-frame, would you only carry 100 rounds of ammunition for your fully automatic weapon. Or would you say 'Hey QM, WTF? Give me more ammunition, or I'll waste the first round on you'.

IMHO, ammunition consumption really shouldn't be an issue *every* scenario, unless the players are silly. Generally, it should only be an issue if the GM wants it to, either because it's an aspect of the scenario that needs to be dealt with, or as some kind of balancing factor (for those GMs that hate Heavy Bolters).