I'm planning on instituting a new rule for my game, it is -

No benefit from SA
No benefit from FA
No benefit from sights
No benefit from PB
Cannot call shots

I can see this resulting in an argument but the gunslinger in my group is as effective in melee as he is at range and it strikes me as perverse that he could, hypothetically, take out my melee build assassin from another game who's at a similar xp level.

Opinions please.

Your solution looks solid. We came up against the same situation in our group and here is how we solved it:

• You may use any range weapon in melee (basic, pistol and heavy)
• You may fire these weapons on any setting (single, semi and full)
• If using basic or heavy weapons you take a penalty of -20 to the action
• When firing in melee you use WS to rolling to hit instead of BS

This makes it possible to use all manner of ranged weapons in melee since a shotgun does not magically stop working just because you are in melee, though the technique you must use to hit is very different from when fighting at range.

This also ensures that pistols are superior to other ranged weapons in melee but a pure gunslinger will still have a very hard time against a trained melee fighter.

funkwit81 said:

Why would anyone use:

SA

FA'

Sights

in your game?

In fact it seems like melee would be the only way to go since you could get multiple attacks with it.

Friend of the Dork said:

If I understand correctly this rule would only apply when using pistols in melee, not in general. It makes sense that ranged weapons are most useful at range and melee weapons are most useful in melee.

Otherwise why would anyone use a sword when you can just dual wield hack shotguns or autopistols?

Storhamster said:

Ah missed the topic of the thread. In which case, it is almost the same as RAW already, only called shots is completely new.

Seems ok, although I allow all modes in melee (and sights) and the Assassin still ***** everything with his melee weapons. When you're fighting tough enough enemies autopistols with manstoppers just don't cut it anymore.

The quick and easy fix IMO is to loose the +20% full auto bonus, as that's the only thing that could make guns better than melee weapons in.. melee. Other than that the melee talents+parry option usually wins out. Even on lower levels the damage potential of say a mono great weapon wins over autopistol.

AFAICS, these rules don't make hack shotguns much worse, although lack of red dot sight does make it a bit harder. Again, not broken to begin with, much better in PBR anyway.

Friend of the Dork said:

Looks like it to me as well, noting that the 'new RAW' on this is a response from Ross and not yet in any eratta. You can only make a single attack with a pistol in melee, and you don't gain the benefit of sights or close range.

Outside of that, the modification to remove called shots seems off to me. I personally liked the new rules (I know some people don't and I understnad the motivation) because they took out the biggest headache for me which was autofire, particularly when combined with TWW. Called shots, at least in DH, don't really do much except maybe find a spot of armor that's a little bit weaker, so I kind of like keeping that bit of advantage in there to the pistol wielders out there.

Charmander said:

It's a personal taste thing of course but there's nothing in the errata to prevent someone with twin Hereceturs with manstopper rounds, and i bet there's much better autopistols out there, opening up with two full auto bursts with all the bonuses it brings. Until it gets in an errata I can't see my players liking it at all and a compromise for me is to remove the bonuses, which they won't like much but a bit more than not letting them do it at all an, after all, it's a game so everyone's meant to enjoy it, that'd kinda nerf the gunslinger and I don't want to do that.

As for the Called Shots thing it's more that i find it hard you can pull off a shot at a precise location in the thick of melee, it needs some kind of aiming for me and I find that hard to do with a gun while, again for me, it seems like it'd be easier to do with a sword/knife/axe etc.

One rule i found while looknig into all this is that to dodge SA/FA you dodge one bullet per degree of success on your dodge. I didn't know that before!

funkwit81 said:

I think it could go either way as far as thematic explanations are concerned. I mean, it wold be difficult to pull off a called shot in the torso because you'd have to look down to aim (which would leave you open to counterattack.) Likewise a called shot to arms and legs would be tricky since they're flailing around so much. But I think a called shot to the head would be pretty easy when you can press the barrel right up against his eye socket.

This would, of course, depend on what kind of armor the intended victim has, too. If there's a helmet involved that could add a whole new angle tot he question.

Again, I'd say it could go either way, whichever the GM prefers.

Funk, you dodge one EXTRA bullet per degree of success.. just to clarify.

You're correct of course Dork. Darn late night foruming takes its toll... egg on my face ;-)

funkwit81 said:

Hey! Read the disclaimer!

I don't call you a halfWit do I?

Friend of the Dork said:

no insulted intended Friend of and, tbh, I've been called much worse over the years. On a more logical stance though HalfWit isn't in ym name whereas Dork is in yours ;-)

funkwit81 said:

So is Friend... *sob*...

And since I used half you name I added "half" to it

Storhamster said:

Ammo