I was looking at playing a SOB out of the BoM, when I noticed that they can't get swift attack ever, nor do seriphim or celestians. Is this a typo or are they some of the worst hand to hand combatants in the game?

That is correct - the earliest possible point of time where you could gain this talent would be rank 1 of the Ascension Palatine.

It is a bit "inconvenient", to say the least, especially for the career paths that are supposedly all about close combat.

Izinverse said:

Why would close fire support and jump pistoliers need multiple melee attacks? Sure, "Squad leaders" may be seen with a melee weapon doesn't mean the SoB are intended or designed to be melee.

Because they are still highly trained soldiers in a game where the mechanic gets 3 attacks. I didn't say they should be beating down death cult assasins, just that they shouldn't be worse then the sister diaologis.

phantomoftruth said:

Celestians are actually more like elite bodyguards (or they usually fill that role, anyways). Fire support is what the Dominions (which are not mentioned in BoM) do. Both Celestians as well as Seraphim train a lot in close combat, the latter because they want to get in close and the former because they sometimes have to.

BoM includes several passages about their specialized melee training which supposedly employs a few special moves dating back to the time when they were still a little-known cult on San Leor.

Elite Advances, Elite Advances, everywhere.

If your GM is good, your players knowledgeable and even-handed, etc. you don't even need Careers.

Izinverse said:

I am pretty sure repentia's get it. I will have to look at my book again, if they do not get it I would deffinatly consider it a typo.

As much as there are several typos in the book. There are a whole host of skills the "Battle Sister" class does not get.

I assume them not getting a bunch of skills is a ballancing issue.

As far as the Seraphim are concerned. They get a lot of nice things (some for free). And their primary method of attack is their trademark dule pistol style fighting. which the game doesn't limit at all. They are given access to power weapons and the ability to use them, but it isn't their main thing. So I don't think it's unreasonable that they don't get some of the more advanced melee tallents. (The SoB class still has WS as one of the more expensice stats to advance)

Now the Celestian has some rockin' abilities and they get Counter-Attack albiet at 400xp. And I don't even think it's that horrible that they don't get things like swift attack. Remeber in the Table-top game Celestians are only armed with bolters. I do however wish that celestian's had Wall of Steel to really take advantage of the Counter-attack ability. (And I'll be asking for the Elite advance from my GM eventually....)

Domionion Squads where just sisters with assult weapons. Which the game ampuly supplies with Basic (flame) at rank two ect.. but the storm bolter could be requisitioned at an come at a earlyier rank... (like it's needed..=P you already get way more then your fellow acolytes.)

Battle Sister is a Tank.

Elohiem_Militant said:

The confusion may also stem from the fact that Seraphim are usually seen as the best SoB close combat unit on the TT due to having two pistols - but still there's also heaps of fluff talking about their melee training.

Elohiem_Militant said:

I'm not sure that is entirely accurate - of course they are not a dedicated close combat unit and thus focus on ranged weapons, but I don't believe they do not carry a close combat weapon into the fight just because the Tabletop doesn't allow models to switch weapons in combat. I pretty much like the idea of Soulstorm where the Sisters would draw cutlasses when you'd engage them in melee.

Also note that Celestians were amongst the few units where the entire squad could mount sarissas on their bolters, effectively turning them into a CC weapon (as per the description). Although this was handled pretty badly in the TT, making this upgrade useless in terms of cost/benefit as it'd only count for the first round...

Elohiem_Militant said:

You're right, I actually meant the Retributors. Dominions are special weapons, Retributors are heavy ones. Shame on me!

Elohiem_Militant said:

*nods* That's the role I will try to assume. I'm curious to see how it works out - it's definitively a change from my last character (Assassin) not only in roleplaying but also combat style.

Lynata said:

Oh it's accurate, it says only models armed with a Bolter may take as sarissa. But only Heroes (or Heroines in this case) can take equipment from the wargear section. They just have hatred which makes them better then normal sisters as far as table top goes...

In table top the Sarissa was crappy too. It just let you re-roll your "to wound" rolls on the turn you charge. The one portrayed in Dark Heresy is a must have for every Sister of Battle... If only I knew how to get one or how much they (Correctly) cost.....

Elohiem_Militant said:

I've just looked it up in the 'dex and you're right - for some reason I remembered it as a squad selection for Celestians! Oh well, as you said, not like they'd be worth the points anyways.

Elohiem_Militant said:

Yeah, the table in BoM seems to miss out on stuff like grenades and upgrades...

Given that it turns your boltgun into an axe I suppose you could just proxy the list's sword for it. Or you take a look at the Alternate Requisitioning System I'm working on!

I hope that this is the result of a game design decision. That going forward they will use the source books to strip all HtH abilty away from non specalists (ie guard, tech priest, priest, basicly everyone but assasins) Otherwise the logic looks like the writer just said F it

Izinverse said:

"Otherwise we're left with the situation that characters supposedly drilled in unique close combat techniques still don't differ from a Scribe in terms of melee options."

thats what I mean why would they make elite soliders among the worst in the game at HtH? Guardsmen are better but have less training in all published fluff, onlly Storm Troopers come close. It hurts my brain.

I think Guardsmen actually would become Stormtroopers as part of their natural career progression - at least going by the Core Rulebook ranks. I'm honestly a little relieved that the writers now seem to have resorted to only use numbers to differentiate between them, and not titles. I absolutely loved the fluff in their description, but in some instances it felt a bit weird in terms of roleplaying the character's progression (even though you could just ignore it).

That said, I'm curious what "Only War" will change about Guardsmen specializations.