I'm not all that familiar with the setting beyond what I've read in the RPG books.

Is there a reason (other than Pure Faith came out in a sourcebook which followed the core book) that the Pure Faith talent is not available to clerics (or even other extremly pious characters)?

Would that break the setting in some way? Would it steal the "soul" of the Sisters of Battle?

If you were to make it available to Clerics, would you allow them to have the later talents as well? Should it cost more? How much?

jbuck said:

In a way it would, as this has been one of the things that defined the Sisters of Battle and sort of balanced their lack of genetic enhancement in the Tabletop. It also has roots in the setting itself, as Ministorum clerics usually do not practice the extreme amount of unconditional devotion, self-deprivation and zeal that seems to be required to "trigger" Acts of Faith. Of course there are always exceptions from this rule, but it may also be that this sort of faith is "cumulative" (as in: requiring a certain amount of "conduits") and that it takes decades of service to the God-Emperor to align one's soul with whatever causes these miracles - in the Tabletop, a squad of Battle Sisters required a Veteran Superior to just "enable" Acts of Faith at all, and the effects of such miracles were indeed affected by the unit size.

Your standard Ministorum Cleric is more like a politician, a preacher who focuses on moving large crowds, someone who has grown up in the relative luxury of the Imperial Cult's massive wealth, who is concerned about his own advancement and who, in many cases, talks about more than he or she actually does himself. In a way, it's like comparing an order of monks to the Vatican.

That said, there have always been exceptional people throughout the Imperium's history, and I'm pretty sure that someone like Sebastian Thor would have qualified for Pure Faith - so if you have someone like that in your group who truly roleplays his character as expressing the aforementioned traits, then you could very well consider allowing him to take the Pure Faith talent (or maybe even a single Faith Talent or so) as an Elite Advance. In fact, Blood of Martyrs talks about this very subject, though it feels to me as if there is a bit of inflation going on there.

Tl;dr: you be the judge - but judge carefully.

Clerics can have Talents... it's just rare and usually belongs to the extreme monkish ones. In the IH, just look to the Black Priests. If you have Blood of Martyrs, then there are several more options for gaining Faith Talents. But, on the whole, being what they are, faith that begets miracles is the exception as opposed to the rule and take an extreme devotion and sacrifice in order to achieve (and most clerics aren't willing to sacrifice what the church gives them for their faith ;-) ).

The Cleric in my group is definitely not the Pure Faith type A lot of the priests depicted in the books do look rather corrupted to me. A bit like a lot of the monasteries in the Dark Ages who on the outside at least were looking very pious. In reality a lot became Prayer Factories where the rich could buy of they sins by paying enormous sums of money. Corrupting the monks inside in the process. The same I am sure happened to most of the Ecclasiarchy.

The best answer however is that Pure Faith was invented after the basic book was written and therefore is not a part of the careers listed there. However, you can get an alternate rank now which does have the Pure Faith talent. Also, when that is impossible, there are always elite advances.

Clerics can have Pure Faith talents. See certain paths open to them in Blood of Martyrs. I also dimly recall the Black Priest of Maccabeus in the Inquisitor's Handbook getting Pure Faith.

What gets me is that Clerics never receive Armour of Contempt (in the main rulebook - again, BoM alternative career ranks change that). If a frothy-mouthed, chopper-wielding Cleric doesn't qualify for partial-protection from Corruption due to sheer bloodymindedness, I don't know who does.

Cleric are the aristocracy of the Church but that doesn't mean that they are truly faithful.

The majority of Imperial subjects may be pious, fervent, devout, devoted servants of the God-Emperor, raised from birth to venerate Him etc etc but yet they don't get the "Pure Faith" talent, not even regular Clerics normally get it. So what exactly is Pure Faith and what does it take to get it? I imagine that Pure Faith was a form of mental derangement, an unswerving psychotic devotion in a world where belief echoes in the Warp. In other words, I consider the Sororitas in be not merely faithful but actually certifiably insane by our standards.

Characters with Pure Faith will walk through traffic with their eyes close.

I like that description. Quite fitting!

I just noticed the Missionary from Rogue Trade gets Pure Faith too.

That pretty much settles it for me; I'll let a Cleric have it.

Assuming, of course, that the Cleric actually is pious and a true believer.

jbuck said:

I was initailly a bit shocked by the ready access that Missionary's have to "Pure Faith" but the more I got to thinking about it the more I figured that it made sense. These are missionaries - I've met a few in the real world before - and as a rule they are more zealous, evangelistic and devoted to their faith than the average.

They've had the tenacity and gumption, or Faith, to stike out, potentially into a hostile environment to share what they believe. While a Cleric could be a parson in a safe littel congregation in a nice Imperial backwater. I can justify all Missionaries having "Faith" but I can't do so for Clerics.

That's not to say that they shouldn't have access to it - but I think it should remain an Elite Advancement or accessible via an alternate rank.

Say around 500xp for True Faith as an elite advance and around 400xp per Faith Talent (Cap of Rank or Rank +1 ish) IF the character is portrayed as unswervingly pious and zealous as a Sororitas. Of course if you have patience, you can ascend into the Heirophant career and gain True Faith for "free"... Crusaders get it too, just a bit later. Heck, a Cleric/Inquisitor can get it eventually, but they get Unnatural Willpower first so they can wait that long...

Religiously inspired serial killers get it too, aka Death Cult Assassins.

Side question: should the damage effects of Pure Faith (Wrath of the Righteous for example) affect other characters with Pure Faith?

RAW, yes. If the God-Emperor has a say then "no". I rule the latter. But what if PCs (or a certain NPC Witchfinder ) figure that they can test purity by burning suspected heretics with something like the "Flames of Faith" Talent? Might this encourage a pyromaniacal hysteria with everyone running around setting each other on fire on flimsy charges of heresy?

Invoketh the Flames of Faith upon ye burning brand and press upon ye wycche.

If the burns be greate then tis a daemon indeed and you must burn it forthwith!

If it burns normally then she is an impious, loose woman and should burn for sinfulness!

If she burns not at all then she either hath Pure Faith Talent or be a wycche most powerful! Burn just in case! The God Emperor knows his own!

Here's another related question based on deficient knowledge of the setting:

Do/can Space Marines have Pure Faith?

If no, why not? Aren't they supposed to be pseudo-manastic zealots of the Imperium? IIRC, some of them don't believe int he divinity of the Emperor...but what about the ones that do?

I'm generally weary of any ability based on "faith" because I have a hard time seeing why someone couldn't have it.

I do not think there is any Space Marine Chapter that does believe in the Emperor being a god. Similarly, I do not recall any fluff describing them as zealots in the religious sense - their zeal seems focused on things such as honour and the fight against their enemies rather than the belief that there is something greater, some kind of unseen force that would lend them additional strength. The Space Marines rely on themselves alone.

"As part of the Adeptus Ministorum, the Sisterhood adheres strictly to the dictates of the Imperial Creed as laid down by the Ecclesiarches founder Fatidicus. Naturally these beliefs include the worship of the Emperor and obeisance to His will in all things. This aspect of the Creed, while central to the functioning of the Imperium, has historically caused the most trouble between the Ecclesiarchy and other Imperial factions. Most notable are the conflicts between the Ministorum and the Space Marines, whose insistence that the Emperor was a man possessed of great powers runs contrary to the Creed's interpretation of the Emperor as a true god, who for a time took mortal form. "

As for your concern regarding faith - it's not just a question of having it or not, it is a question of how strong it is. What an individual is ready to do in the name of faith, and how convinced he is that the God-Emperor would imbue him with a facet of His power. A character with Pure Faith does not just pray for the Emperor's mercy out of despair or even simple habit, he actually expects it to be granted in times of need and knows he is being watched. The vast majority of what is commonly regarded as the faithful does little more than paying lip service to the Creed, anyways, and even amongst those who truly believe in the God-Emperor as actually caring for them you will find few whose faith is so strong that it can break the "wall" between simple fanatism and true miracles.

@guest469: You have a very good point regarding your ruling. As for the problem you voiced, however, I think we should keep in mind that Acts of Faith should not be triggered when there is no express need. Once a character starts seeing Faith Talents as something of a convenience rather than the Emperor's Divine Power that can be called upon in the darkest of times, I'd actually consider that character to be corrupted and have him loose all benefits of Pure Faith.

Ah. Ok. So it makes sense, no SM with Pure Faith...because they don't have the necessary belief structure for the faith to ever even take root.

And by that I mean "Big F" faith, with all the zealotry and devotion...your explanation of the type of faith exemplified by "Pure Faith" is what I had I mind all along. I just didn't make it all that clear.

SM view the Emperor as a father, right?

In a way, yes. All Marines revere both the Emperor as well as their Chapter's Primarch as great men and sort-of-ancestors.

The great majority have some sort of religious beliefs, even if it is a cult venerating the Primarch of their progenitor legion. Also there is one chapter that venerates the Emperor as a deity, the Blood Ravens. Though I suspect this was strategically chosen by Relic as just another way for them to be different from ever single other chapter in the Imperium. If there are any others, I've yet to hear anything about them.

Well, veneration isn't the same as religious beliefs in the context of this thread. As long as they don't see the Emperor as a god it's really just about adoration and pride.

Didn't know that about the Blood Ravens, though. Where is that from? I didn't notice this in DoW1 and Lexicanum also has nothing about it. If this is true then ... huh, sucks a bit, imo.

Dawn of War II has a collection of different pieces of background fluff that are displayed on the load screens. That is one such entry.

Really? Duh ... well, so much for another angle of uniqueness. By now I should have gotten used to the Astartes stealing Sisters stuff I guess.

Hmm, I suppose a Blood Raven would then be entitled to Pure Faith as well if they're really that zealous about it. Doesn't DW's Rites of Battle contain new Chapter origins, too? If the Blood Ravens are in it, maybe the book already addresses this?

Lynata said:

That's a bit of an over-generalization, Lynata. Is the average Blood Raven more pious than the average Imperial citizen? Probably. Pious to the same degree as an Adepta Sororitas? Unlikely.

There are members who are more pious than others about their religious devotion, and there are others who are honestly closer to the average space marine chapter in their beliefs about the Emperor. Also, depending on the era of the timeline you are playing in, the Blood Ravens might not be an issue. Either because they don't exist yet, or because they are on the brink of annihilation not only by their traditional enemies, but by the Ordos Hereticus and Malleus.

All in all, I think the only Blood Ravens that would have Pure Faith would be Chaplains and maybe some more exceptional battle-brothers. But all things considered, I think the latter would be fairly rare.

Of course it's an over-generalization, but I see this as just another barrier having been broken. Similar to how the Inferno Pistol used to be available only to the Sisters.

I dunno, I just used to believe in the neat distinction of "Space Marines = Sons of the Emperor in Blood, Sisters = Daughters of the Emperor in Spirit". And I dislike seeing how defining aspects of the Sisterhood, be them personality and style traits or equipment, either get "appropriated" by Marine Chapters or (if already present) weakened to make the latter appear more awesome.

But that's enough off-topic for me. Sorry for the rant. Feels better now that I said it tho.

Lynata said:

The Black Templar seem to be getting awefully close to whorshiping the Emperor as a God if you read the newer fluff, their description in the DW core feels far to religious to me, especially given that the previous background and the fact that they were set up by Dorn to get past the Codex and continue the great crusade sets them well within the we are atheists camp

Banjulhu said:

Hmm, I'm reading a lot about their crusades and faith and stuff, but in the end those are just "misleading words" (just like the very name of their Chapter) as long as they still don't see the Emperor as a god. Their crusade is just a great cause, and their faith is not in a deity but themselves. Of course it's possible that I missed some small bit of fluff like with the Blood Ravens, so if anyone has to add something, feel free to share.

I definitively agree at the newer fluff seems to be pushing them stronger into this direction in terms of style, which is something I do not entirely approve of, but I don't think they've "broken the barrier" like the Blood Ravens apparently did yet. And then there's the whole question whether FFG's writings are an interpretation or indeed the first steps a looming retcon of the whole "Marines = secular" dogma (along with the other changes to the fluff introduced by this RPG) that has remained inviolate for decades. It would certainly change a lot about the relationship between Astartes and Ministorum...

Lynata, I think you may have misinterpreted something I said. I only stated that the Blood Ravens actually worship the Emperor instead of venerating his as the greatest human to ever live like other chapters. And that this might , might being the key word here, be used as a springboard in a purely literary environment for a space marine having Pure Faith. As far as I know there is no mention of any of the members of that or any other chapter using Acts of Faith or even having saints of the Imperial Cult.

If a player in a game I ran wanted to have a space marine wielding Acts of Faith in addition to his already high-grade equipment and implants, I would tell them to be happy with what they have and to ask themselves if it is something their character has some actual dire need of. Even if they said yes, I would still say no to the whole idea.