With the release of the new Runebound expansion preview, it's apparent that the fantasy world of Terrinoth is degenerating into sci-fi. While I think this was an after-thought move by FFG to make Runebound stand out more from Talisman, which they didn't have when work started on said expansion, I still fear it will have a bearing on Descent, which shares its world with Runebound.

Probably a lot of people won't be bothered ("yeah, cool, I can fight alien robots in the dungeon with my axe!"), I can't stand sci-fi. Especially since 85% of all fantasy settings degenerate into it before too long. I know I've lost interest in Runebound with this news, but Descent is another matter. If, down the road, Descent becomes another sci-fi setting where I have to bash aliens with my technology-enhanced plasma axe welided by my telekinetic cyborg halfling, Descent probably won't interest me any more. I'll have to fall back on heroquest, but it's pretty bare-bones to what Descent is now.

What do you think will happen? Descent: Journeys in Dark Space, or stay as-is, using new figures rather Runebound ones if the time comes for that? How will you feel about the game with those changes? Would you prefer a sci-fi version of Descent as a separate game?

bitva said:

I won't worry about it. If Descent ever goes sci-fi just don't buy the expansion..

bitva said:

I would completely ditch FFG if they did that, infact I WAS going to buy Runebound, but am not now.

Listen most Fantasy Fans dont like sc-fi or dont like it mixed with their fantasy. I am a bit of a luddite, hence my obsession with unplugged gaming. Its not wise to inject technology into a product meant for fantasy fans who prefere using books, boards and toy soldiers over computers in this day and age. Learn this weel FFG, you WILL LOSE MONEY if you push this, esspecially into descent.

If Descent had the slightest hint of sc-fi I would ditch it for Warhammer Quest, Heroquest, and Advanced Heroquest 2nd edition. FFG you have a great dungeon crawl here, please don't screw it up, classic is GOOD, just like fusion cooking, mixing genres often is unpalatable to most people, excepts for the kooky types who thrive on it.

Siebeltje said:

Of course I wouldn't. But once a fantasy setting degenerates into sci-fi, it's not a limited time thing. That's the way the setting remains for the rest of its existence. See; Final "Fantasy", Magic" the Gathering, etc. And why would I adopt a "who cares" attitude about yet another game that was once enjoyable, but no longer is? After all I invested in Runebound, it's not easy to watch it suddenly become something I don't want to spend any more resources or time with, and since I enjoy Descent exponentially more, I'd really hate for that to happen to it.

Christof999 said:

I wish I could agree that most fantasy fans don't want sci-fi mixed in, but the truth is there either aren't enough fantasy fans around, or they really don't care, or else that 85% of fantasy setting devolving into sci-fi wouldn't be plausible. Fact is, most people (who only casually like fantasy) either can't distinguish the two genres, or just don't bother to. Just like most people can't distinguish heavy metal from hard rock, or are too lazy to pick up the blatant difference.

I agree that this kind of news makes one appreciate things like Heroquest more, where the setting ended before it ran out of ideas or tried to cash in and degraded to sci-fi.

I agree. I wouldn't like the two mixed. But I stand on the other side of the line. I am a die-hard sci-fi fan that occasionally dips into fantasy. In almost every case I get bored of fantasy. I quit WoW after a couple months for that reason, I find LoTR to be pretty boring now (movies included). It seems the entire fantasy genre is based on one event: the go-get. Go get me this, go retrieve this so I can make that, etc.

I am proud to say that I am not (nor ever forsee) myself getting bored with Descent. If they ever do add sci-fi into Descent, just don't buy the expansion. I know, I know, it goes against your completist mentality. I don't forsee Descent needing to resort to cross-genre pollination however. They could continue to make region specific expansions (volcano, swamp, jungle), expansions of already existing ideas (more feat cards), or new ideas (spell books, skills, etc).

Really, looking at D&D and its limitless hordes of monsters, spells, and stories, Descent has oodles of potential still.

I'd agree that this id a bit more "early Warhammer" than the world we've come to know, but as long as they isolate this to the single location/event, the fantasy purists can simply ignore this expansion, much like a lot of RB purists ignored Midnight.

I think its silly to say its degenerate sci-fi until you see how they actually handle it. So far all you have is some fluff.

Meanwhile it sounds like these are millenium old constructs and an immortal teamed up with an ice wyrm. They even went out of their way to explain why there is no space ship around anymore either. Just a "mechanical city." And a really really old one at that.

Clockwork, steam powered, etc has a place in a growing fantasy world. I think you are overreacting to write the game off completely based purely on the background fluff that has been given.

Some of the best fantasy has space ships in it. Its all in how you handle it. (and yes, I consider Star Wars fantasy.)

Gargamel said:

Thanks for your opinion, but it doesn't matter how "good" the sci-fi is, it's still sci-fi, and I still don't like sci-fi. And read the preview again. In Runebound, you're going to be fighting alien robots. It's not just background story.

I'm all for Doom-Descent crossovers myself - heck, the tiles are even compatible, I'm currently using the Descent RtL dungeon end tile behind the red doors in my Doom campaign

I do not understand why the fluff isn't just simply mad wizard with magical constructs instead of mechanical ones. Wouldn't the game play be the same with the fluff maintaining a fantasy feel?

I do not hate sci-fi or fantasy but I will admit star wars asside when they mix I tend to not like the results.

granor said:

Have you ever seen the movie Krull by chance? That movie trumps Star Wars as the perfect mix of scifi and fantasy.

Wow, really? All it takes for you to an entire game system is some mild science fiction?

Man. Medieval fantasy purists sure have extensive whine cellars. I wonder if science fiction purists get apoplectic when someone shows up with medieval steel weapons...

Thundercles said:

Sure they do Just think of how Klingons put everybody off Star Trek...

If it's just steampunk (ala Arcanum), it wouldn't be that bad. I think automates are mentionned in a few medieval legends.

For me, the thought of a Descent style game with a sci-fi setting sounds like a cool idea...oh yeah, Doom exists. I enjoy both sci fi and fantasy, but unlike chocolate and peanut butter, I enjoy them seperately. If Descent were to get lazer guns and spaceships, I would be more than mildly upset.

Big Remy said:

I have seen Krull and I really do like the movie. I even remember going to a place like Chucky cheese to play the video game of Krull when I was younger. I even think the movie was good, however, the universe doesn't make much sense. Why is everyone running around with swords when the guards have guns? How do the guards lose any of the fights? I mean really why does this happen at least with star wars there are reasons lightsabers are a good weapon. This is where most sci-fi and fantasy mix start to lose. There are "rules" that just don't make sense in the universe.

granor said:

Yeah I always took it as aliens invading an low tech planet. As for cool weapons I mean c'mon, the mind controlled ninja star/circular caw blade thing was fantastic!

Well, I just don't like sci-fi, but it's especially bad when mixed with fantasy. It's even worse when that mix started out as pure fantasy to begin with. That's why the new Runebound theme has me concerned about what could happen to Descent.

I don't have Runebound but I share idea that let fantasy game stays in fantasy style and sci-fi game let continues in their sci-fi way. FFG company has both genres which offers. ONLY customers can force manufacturer, through demand to others future game development. If will customers ignore buying expansions with sci-fi influence or if total amounts of selling product fall under economy line (are ineffective produce), than all resources which was invested into development brings no avail. Usually company takes place to polls, that shall prevent from waste resources. Customers can only vote over DEMAND and wait. Problem I see in that if company release only 1 expansion/per year and subject was sci-fi genre so next one fantasy will comes up-to 2 year, if ever ( expansion time prolonging ).

If FFG wants some kind of sci-fi integration into game, so let retains option of clear fantasy game playability through fantasy expansion packs and new one through sci-fi packs this I consider as wise copromise. Diverse with preserve!i

My individual opinion and wish, don't make cyberpunk nor' sci-fi features to Descent and Runebound.

bitva said:

I'll parrot what some other people have been saying:

a) It hasn't happened yet, so wait and see. Even the Runebound expansion hasn't been finished yet, so while there ARE previews, you really DON'T know what the end product is going to be like. I understand your concerns, but I feel they're a bit premature.

b) It's never a question of the "what" so much as the "how". There are truly hideous attempts at sci-fi/fantasy integrations (like that old D&D module -- what was its name again) and some glorious ones (the first Star Ocean game on SNES is a good example)

Ultimately, my advice is to wait until you see what they do before condemning them. To quote Orson Scott Card: "The only difference between sci-fi and fantasy is that sci-fi has rivets and metal on the cover, and fantasy has trees" Demons are cross-dimensional aliens. Your +5 sword of light is a light sabre. Buck Rogers' ray gun is a wand of magic missiles. Ultimately, since neither is based on our world and our rules, it's all just a matter of saying whether it's mystical or frankenscience.

I keep thinking of Anne McCaffrey's Dragonriders of Pern series. In one sense, it's sci-fi. The humans are decendants of colonists. They're on an alien world. In one part of the original trilogy they find the wreckage of the original spaceship that brought them there (or one of them... or something... it's been a while) At the same time you're dealing with a society that has no post-medieval technology, and a warrior-caste that bonds with flying fire-breathing dragons. In my mind, I consider the series to be fantasy. The fact that there are scientific explainations for everything in the story rather than mystical/magical ones doesn't change that.

So again, try to look at the preview from a distance, and really ask yourself if it changes the way the game plays, or if it's just a new variety of monster for your heroes to deal with.

That being said, if the Descent design team starts having lots of thoughts about cool sci-fi critters and adventures, they should consider shelving them for a Doom expansion instead! ;-)

THAT being said, if they want robots in Descent, I agree with -- umm... sorry... don't remember who posted about it -- that they should focus on making them steampunk and/or magical constructs more than ancient alien invaders. Unless they're thinking of having a "humans are the aliens" origin story for their setting like in Pern and other settings. Personally I'd like to see a bit of steampunk. I'm a big fan of Warmachine (Privateer Press) and similar types of things. I also like to see a setting that evolves. So since we have firebombs, it's only a matter of time before the fantasy world comes up with a blunderbuss (or do they already have one?)

Ultimately you can't expect to like every last addition they make to your favorite game. What you can do is decide what you like and what you don't, and just go with it. If an expansion has too much sci-fi for you, don't buy it. And just as importantly, speak up about it just like you have, but be specific. Saying something like "Sci-fi sucks" isn't sufficient. Tell them why you feel that their specific approach doesn't integrate well with the setting and/or gameplay, and they're far more likely to take your complaints to heart and influence how they proceed. After all: You're their customer, and if enough people share the same concerns, they'll take notice, or the franchise will crumble.

Finally, apologies for the length of the post, but I didn't realize how much I'd written until I was done. I don't think I've rambled, so I guess I just had a lot to say on the subject. Hope that's okay ;-)

granor said:

This is exactly what I was thinking as well.

Though, I will say I was kinda dissapointed when I read the first RB spoiler where it mentioned the sci fi-ish theme, but since then FFG has posted two more spoilers showing cards, and the weather conditions and all of that stuff so far has still been mainly fantasy stuff. So who knows, it probably will still be a bit wierd, but It doesn't seem like the sci fi stuff will be as prevalent as everyone is talking about. I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

Also, even if the story does turn out to be too much for you, you could still buy RB Frozen Wastes for the cool winter map, new characters, new equipment and snow rules stuff, and just use one of the other old story decks I guess.

I think people might be overeacting. So it says the Bad Guy is from another planet? so what? Any Fantasy setting has outworldly creatures and some aspects of advanced tech or magi-tech. Demons, Devils, Angels and the like are "Aliens" of a sort from another dimention. In Warhammer Fantasy, the Old Ones. In the end it dosen't have to inbalance the setting, only add new elements to it.