I am pretty used to skills being over 100% from my Stormbringer games - although stats were not and don't have a maximum (in the game i run)

Graspar said:

Ha ha ha!

I didn't realize that this was such serious business. Sorry!

I don't believe that I'm "fudging" the rules. The ones that I'm referring to are right there in the core rulebook (I even cited page numbers). They outline feats of strength that do not require percentile rolls.

Using a bit of common sense, it isn't a stretch to assume that these rules have an impact upon the system in other places.

I am fine with the rules as they are. They aren't perfect, for sure, but I don't agree that they are as broken as you and a few others are saying.

I need this book ___

I was looking for a release date and i found this on the store i usually buy many books:

February Preorder (i hope this date its true)

"Presenting over 50 creatures for use in Dark Heresy campaign, this 128 page, full color hardcover tomeis a handsome additionto any RPGbookshelf"

I just can't wait.....^ ^

Necrozius said:

Well, it was your idea that arm wrestling should be an extended opposed test, and now you are saying that they should also be decided by GM arbitration in the case where the rules don't model the desired result well. Thats a pretty good definition of fudging, amirite?

Also note that I'm not saying that the rules are horribly broken, just that they work better and are easier to handle if you simply disgregard the one sentance that contains a reference to characteristics being between 1 and 100.

Page 9 refers to the D100 roll as a "percentage roll".

Page 22 states (sic) "Characteristics ahve a value of 0 to 100."

Thats all I really have for now.

Allrigth, that page 22 reference proves you right. I still think it's a stupid rule. I mean, even if we assume that unnatural characteristic is a good way to model very strong creatures that doesn't mean you have to exclude scores above 100. It just means there can be an extra rule for when it's better.

I love that this old debate has reared its ugly head again! I seem to remember getting into it over on the old BI boards.

Whatever your stance/opinion about it, i'm convinced that this issue is an iherent design/conception flaw. Not one unique to DH of course, the the core flaw at the heart of BRP, that DH has adopted.

How important is that flaw? Well, it depends on your point of view of course, and it probably isn't going to 'break' a game too much.

I won't go into it in too much detail (having exhausted my reserves on that way back in the old debates), but here's my key issue with it...

Peacekeeper_b said:

OK, so to what does that 0-100 limit relate? Is that just human characters or to all possibles?

If its just human characters, then with the human average at 30, how do you model a Bloodthirster's strength? 300? How do you model the Emperors psychic power? 40,000?

If it encompasses all possibilities, then 30 being the human average, how do you model a Bloodthirster's strength? 60? Twice as strong as a human?

How do you model the Emperors psychic power? It has to be 100 right (the maximum possible? So an average human psyker has 1/3rd the psychic strength of the Emperor? All other psychic power levels must be represented on a scale between 0-100? Are there psykers more powerful than the Emperor? Is the Emperor 70? Ugh...

Hmmm...

Of course the good folks at BI realised this flaw in the system, which is fine for modelling human scales but really is inappropriate for modelling the 'uber-ness' of 40k. Thisis why they came up with the bolt-on, end-around to the problem, that is Unnatural Characteristics. It works, sort of. But is clunky and just doesn't really do the job properly...or does it?

Well when you have a game mechanic that allows a say Strength 100 (no unnatural multiplyer) , and 01% (x 1,000,000 Unnatural multiplyer) , is that a well thought out functioning rule? Those extremes are unlikely of course, but they are possible.

I guess we'll see this topic reemerge time and time again. It was a problem with Ogres, Giants, and Dragons in WHFRP, and 40K has stuff that makes a Giant look like a snotling, so...

Good luck debating in chaps!

Well if the Emperor had a WP of 100 (the characteristic max listed in the Dark Heresy core rule book) and had Unnaturual Willpower at X10, or higher even, as no limited is given there, then he would have a WP bonus of 100 (or maybe more). He would get a bonus of 9 successes everytime he succeeded on a roll and would add +100 to all psyker power use, without any special talents.

That seems pretty **** effective to me.

Yes Unnatural Characteristics may be a back door fix of something that was broken as long ago as 1986 when WFRP 1E came out and wasnt addressed in WFRP 2E. But assuming we go with the stats for Bloodthirsters in WFRP we know that it has a S of 77. Adjusting for Dark Heresy we give it Unnatural Strength, being modest we give it at X2. That is a Strength Bonus of 14! That is pretty **** high. With a typical, non special daemon great sword, it does 2D10+14R Pen 2 damage. Sure at that point it is primitive. But just imagining it isnt primitive (its a daemons sword for crying out loud) it is doint an average of 28 or so damage per round before armour (which is reduced ,on average by 2). Even the Space Marine from PtU takes 11 points of damage on average per hit (average of all armour is 11, reduced by 2 for pen, toughness bonus of 8), that is without the beast having any extra damage talents.

That means Brother Agamorr is down in three average hits, and you can bet your bottom dollar a blood thirster has at least swift attack. Now assuming its weapon is similar to that of a bloodletter, the beast is doing 2D10+14 with Pen 4. Add in crushing blow and all the sudden the average damage is 30 and brother agamorr is only soaking 15 instead of 17 (average armour 11, TB 8, Pen 4) destroying the space marine in two average hits.

Now honestly, tell me, do you think the creature needs a strenght in excess of 100, or is that just overkill?

Some games use a linear system, where 8 is twice as good as 4 and four times as good a 2 and eight times better then 1. Some use exponential, where 4 is twice as good as 3, four times as good as 2, eight times as good as 1. Some use non scaling, where a 18 is just a 18 and not necessarily twice as good as a 9.

Dark Heresy and WFRP both fall under the last category. If I have a 60, it does not make me automatically twice as good as a 30. It gives me a natural 30 point advantage but a -10 penalty changes a 60 to a 50 and a 30 to a 20. Now all the sudden my chances are two and a half times as good as a S30 would be afte the penalty.

If the penalty is -30, then a 60 still has a chance, whereas as 30 no longer exists.

Unnatural Characteristics more or less does the following. Modifies the score needed to succeed by +10 per each level. So a S50 with Unnatural Strength (x2) is more accurately a S60, with Un. Str. (x3) it is more accurately a S70.

In addition when you do suceed you get another degree of success, which is more or less like another +10 to your skill/characteristic being tested.

A character with Unnatural Intelligence (x3) and Intelligence 30 gains a +20 bonus to the test (from Challenging +0 to Routine +20) giving him or her a required roll of 50 or less on a D%. If he or she rolls a 30 they get five successes. 2 for the roll and +3 for the Unnatural Characteristic.

Competing against a character with normal intelligence at 50 who is testing the same skill. The Challenging rating stands (+0) so much like his or her Unnatural Intelligence foe he needs to roll a 50 or less on D%. He or she rolls a 11, for a total of 3 successes. Despite being smarter naturally and rolling better, he or she loses as the Unnatural Intelligecen character gains a different insight, knowledge or perspective of the problem the the all too fragile normal intelligence couldnt handle.

The same would apply to any "arm wrestling contests", where size also comes into play. And keep in mind, most creatures with Unnatural Strength, generally already have a S in the 40s or higher as it is.

Sure it may be a bit clunkier then some of the benefits of triple digit stats or higher, and maybe it seems complicated, which is really isnt. But it is a unique system that gives Dark Heresy a different feel and style.

Otherwise I should just play BRP.

Da Boss said:

Yes but Stormbringer is a different system, different rules completely (more or less) and doesnt really deal with damage, attacks, wounds, saves, resistances and so forth in the same manner. They have many similarities (maybe more, I should grab my copy) but are still very different.

But I do think the BRP (Call of Cthulhu, Superworld, Stormbringer, RuneQuest, Future World, Berlin '61) game system engine would have been a good one for Dark Heresy/40KRPG. Heck even WFRP.

But as far as the feel and flavor of WFRP/DH I think the 1-100 set is perfect.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Me?

Nope. Dark Heresy is what it is. 100 is the stated maximum. No worries.

Its not the rule mechanics i'd have used to model the 40K universe , but there we are.

It does what it seems to set out to do and many people love it.

I just found it odd that this discussion keeps surfacing from time to time.

This reminds me of how people used to hate Thac0 in AD&D. We haven't had to use Unnatural Characteristics in our game yet, but it doesn't seem as complex as everyone makes it out to be.

Im not saying its perfect, or I think it is best. But I think we need to accept it and what I am trying to show is that this is the system we have. Not another.

I do agree that at times over 100 may seem logical or make more sense. But is it the only way for it to make sense? No, other options are available.

Just because it is easier is not a reason to take it.

Just because it is harder is not an excuse for it to exist, but it does, and it does work. Just differently.

Peacekeeper_b said:

All other things being equal, yes it is.

I would much have prefered to have the limit on characteristics and unnatural characteristic removed in favour of just typing "This creature has +X SB" to achieve huge damage/speed/whatever without getting huge skill. Why bother with the rigid system of "Multiply by X, get X*10 bonus to skill tests, on succeeded opposed characteristics tests gain X extra degrees of success"? Wouldn't it just be easier, more intuitive and in general better to, where nessesary to model something, add the extra skill as increased characteristics and the extra bonus as a trait titled "Increased strenght bonus (+2)" or similar instead?

Apart from for example the implant granting Unnatural intelligence (x2), the adepts career path which allows Unnatural intelligence (x2) to be purchased and other stuff where the PCs are involved I can't think of a single example where my proposed system would perform any worse and quite a few where it would perform better. For the cases where PCs are involved and thus not subject to detailed design by the GM you could add a talent that combines Increased Characteristic bonus equal to the current bonus with whatever characteristic increase is appropriate.

Yes, it would be more than one rule/trait and would require more text to explain, but it would be easier to use in game and that's the point of rules right? In game use.

So I read that it'll be out in Feburary? that's not soon enough!!! ARGH! lol course pathetic me <just> got Dark Gods, but I want more.

**** that Amazon to the Chaos Gods for giving release dates and they pass by a month or two before it comes out

well I'm psyched.. I wonder if there will be stats for Eldar and careers if you want to play a Eldar or Dark Eldar?

can't wait to find out.

50 some critters, roulghly 120 pages? Seriously doubt we get any "eldar" specific careers. Maybe an alternate rank or two, or starting background options, but I doubt a full fledged career.

And Eldar are in it. That has been confirmed.

Peacekeeper_b said:

Gaghk!!

OH dear, i REALLY hoped not.

Not because i don't want to see the classic foes, but because i think the Eldar deserve their own supplement.

This will presumably reduce them to cardboard cutout targets for the PCs to shoot at rather than the exotic, interesting, alien culture and possible allies that they should be (and i'm FAR from and Elfdar fanboi).

I hope i'm proved wrong on that, i really am.

OH well, i'm still looking forward the wierd and wonderful new Calixis critters!

It was just too easy for Eldar to be put in the book. One, they already have Elf info over at WFRP. Two, the put Eldar in Purge the Unclean.

Three, Unearthed Apocrypha made a wonderful little article on Dark Eldar last year.

I wouldnt ever expect a Eldar Sourcebook, sorry. We have been waiting for Elven and Dwarven book for years for WFRP and got a no go.

There is an excellent Eldar Outcast fanmade career floating on the internet somwhere, using that and some of the non-Space elf material from WFRP and what we see in Purge the Unclean and what we get in a matter of months from the Creature's Anathema, should give you enough for ELdar fun and games.

Oh, don't get me wrong PB.

I'm under no illusions with GW, although the FFG ingredient does add a bit of uncertainty.

Frankly i'm no Eldar fan either. Never liked pointy-ears...

But given each army gets a Codex, it just makes sense to me to do each culture the justice it deserves with its own supplement.

But, as you say, i guess we'll get what we're given...

I hate to say this, but I think I know exactly what would happen if my cell of shotomaniacal acolytes ever saw an Eldar... Haven`t played PtU yet, but somehow I don`t think that would make it better...

"Are those pointy ears? Oi mate! - do you serve the Emperor?!? No? Eat lead then!" Ordo Xenos would be very proud.

That cover art is great...and scares me in my pants...

Luddite said:

Well, you know the chestnut, Luddite, " Q: Why to elves/Eldar have pointy-ears? A: There has to be some point to elves!"

Yes... I know; I am sick... I need help.